[sdoering]

The question is if these ideas, already in place would have come to fruition without the suffering of people up front. We just can't know. I remember a similar discussion with my history professor and us students when talking about the French Revolution and about the Enlightenment. We basically have only one history and are not able to state that the French Revolution was the cause for these good ideas to follow. We couldn't even state it as a catalyst with certainty.

Edit: Typo

[guerrilla]

> The question is if these ideas, already in place would have come to fruition without the suffering of people up front

Of course not. Those in power don't just willingly give it up.