[stale2002]

> Who can look me in the eye with a straight face and say bitcoin protects against volatility

I can do so. As volatile as crypto is, it is still much less volatile than a national currency in a collapsing country.

People in the west and in 1st world countries are much too privileged to see this though.

[NikolaNovak]

>>People in the US or Europe are much too privileged to see this though.

I have no idea why you'd think so, thank you very much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Socialist_Feder...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Federal_...

[stale2002]

> no idea why you'd think so

You have no idea why Id think the average person living in the west right now is dealing with significantly less problems than people living in a country that is experiencing full scale economic collapse?

Really? I think it is pretty self evident that most people living in the west are dealing with much smaller problems than people living in places like Lebanon right now.

If someone is unable to see this pretty basic fact, that their lives are likely much better than the people experiencing full scale economic collapse, then I guess that privilege is stronger than I expected.

[aaaaaaaaata]

The West is just doing it in slower motion due to having more knobs to pull to let steam out of the reactor — so to speak.

[NikolaNovak]

I have replied to your original comment, as it was written then.

You have now edited it, which fair enough, but therefore I think your "really? You can't imagine why I'd say this [...]" Is unwarranted and I cannot meaningfully address it anymore.

[stale2002]

Great, so then you agree with me completely that people living in the west are dealing with significantly less problems than people who are living in an collapsing economy, which is my point.

[jokethrowaway]

When people say Europe they don't understand it means so many countries, they just think of France, Italy and Germany.

[wizofaus]

If it were true that somehow a crypto currency could hold its own in a collapsing economy surely it would just lead to massive queues/shortages? If the economy isn't producing enough it really doesn't matter what sort of currency you use, it's gonna be bad for almost everyone. It may make some difference in terms of foreign debt.

[stale2002]

> If it were true that somehow a crypto currency could hold its own in a collapsing economy

I am not sure why you are speaking in hypotheticals. The economy of lebanon did collapse. And if you were holding bitcoin, you'd be much better off than holding that local currency.

Economies collapse all the time, around the world. And because the coin is a global market, it is insolated from local collapse.

> it really doesn't matter what sort of currency you use

But it did matter! Just look at the current situation, in Lebanon right now. If you were holding the local currency, you'd be screwed. If you were holding a global currency, you'd be much better off.

[Spooky23]

Actually, you’d be way better off with a stack of crisp $100 US bills or silver coinage.

Good luck finding a way to convert your bitcoin into some sort of locally fungible currency while that economy is in a state of collapse and the crypto brokers are on a similar path.

[ip26]

Would you be? If the economy doesn't produce enough food, what food there is just goes up in price. You can say "buy from the global market" but that requires having money, a tall order for a country with a weak economy.

[stale2002]

> Would you be?

Think about the existing right now situation. Imagine if someone, in lebanon, had 50k USD equivalent, in a lebanon bank.

Now, imagine the same person, who had 50k equivalent value, in not the lebanon bank.

Who's better off? Clearly the person who had the global currency.

> You can say "buy from the global market" but that requires having money

Oh, you mean like the money that now wasn't confiscated or inflated away to being worthless? That money?

Yes, that is what you would use the money for. The money that now wasn't taken away, or was not made worthless, is what you would use to buy things.

Situation A: you have no money. Or you have 10 thousand percent inflated money.

Situation B: you do have money, in a global currency. And yes that money can be used to buys things from the international market.

Situation B is better. Much better.

[wizofaus]

Only if there's actually a mechanism in place to get such things to your door. Various regulations and logistical impediments are likely to mean many basics simply cannot be shipped from overseas and delivered to you just because you were holding currency to buy it with. But I suppose at least you can keep your Netflix subscription (assuming the infrastructure to keep high speed internet connectivity is still being maintained adequately and you can afford to pay for that).

[imtringued]

I always wonder if these collapses happen all around the world, why does nobody have the decency to simply accept Bitcoin in their local farm as payment?

Of course there are many reasons, probably the most prominent being that you need to download a 400GB blockchain on your device to actually be secure. No wonder all these Bitcoin people want their technology to have as few transactions as possible, because popularity will ruin it's decentralized nature.

This means you will need a custodial solution like lightning which merely uses game theory to create rewards and incentives for following the rules in a decentralized way but ultimately it is still custodial and knowing and trusting the counterparty is still superior.

This gets to the crux of the problem. Due to the custodial nature of scaling Bitcoin transactions, you will have a centralised organization that can be shut down by the government. The local Bitcoin bank or PayPal equivalent will have the exact same problem as any other bank.

If you argue that this entity can exist outside of the borders of the collapsing country, so do USD banks. Despite its flaws even the USD is a better medium of exchange than Bitcoin.

[stale2002]

Once again. 2 situations.

Situation 1: Person has no money, or worthless money.

Situation 2: Person has 50k USD worth of global currency.

Situation 2 is obviously better. Massively. It is absurd to pretend like situation 2 isn't clearly, obviously, and massively better.

Yes there are some issue with global trade, or whatever. But it is clearly, and obviously better, to have 50k USD in an offshore account, or 50k worth of currency somewhere else.

Think about this situation, specifically. No, it is not just "you can keep your Netflix subscription".

That is a bad argument. It is worth more than that.

> Various regulations and logistical impediments

No. You would be wrong to just say "regulations" means that having 50k worth of USD money somewhere is now worthless. I can promise you, that anyone at all, living basically anywhere in the world would be better if if they had 50k USD in an offshore account.

You cannot seriously, with a straight face say "yep! Having 50k in an offshore account is worthless!"

[gonehome]

It’s strictly better and gives you more options.

You can try to get out of your country with your wealth intact.

It doesn’t magically solve all your issues, but it’s definitely better to have some access to your wealth than having it confiscated.

[ip26]

I guess I’m protesting that while B is better for an individual, it doesn’t work for the whole country. It’s the equivalent of having a well-connected relative abroad to get you out. It’s a godsend, but it doesn’t scale.

[wizofaus]

Assuming you could buy basics from an international market and somehow get them delivered to you at a reasonable price using said global currency, true. But how realistic is that?

[headsoup]

Unless your crypto is with one of the many exchanges currently in the process of collapsing and blocking withdrawals... While the rich guys running the show walk away with mass profits. Yeah, definitely better.

You're basically making the same argument as 'just swap all your money for a different currency.'

It's interesting, I seem to always see these comments on behalf of people who might find crypto useful to avoid local currency issues, not people actually doing it.

[RestlessMind]

> Unless your crypto is with one of the many exchanges

Bitcoin believers always say - "not your keys, not your coins". I am sure you have heard it a million times by now since you also seem to be keeping tabs on which crypto exchanges are collapsing.

[headsoup]

I think Crypto sceptics are the ones more likely saying "not your keys, not your coins..."

[aaaaaaaaata]

Either or: the tech flourishes with this use.

[headsoup]

Unless your crypto is with one of the many exchanges currently in the process of collapsing and blocking withdrawals... While the rich guys running the show walk away with mass profits. Yeah, definitely better.

You're basically making the same argument as 'just swap all your money for a different currency.'