[Joe8Bit]

I do a fair amount of pre-seed and angel investing and I've seen a _massive_ increase in the number of very early businesses that have a "product" that they've been able to build with no/low code tools. It gives non-tech founders a set of options they've never had before, in my experience.

That obviously isn't viable for all early businesses and even the ones it is viable for eventually need to hire engineering teams to build their products, but I love how much more accessible these tools have made shipping something basic.

[shafyy]

I'm currently contracting for a client that uses a no-code tool to build their product, and this is exactly my opinion. If you're building a software startup, the only scenario where it makes sense to use a no-code tool (e.g., Bubble), is if you don't know to code. And even then, you will need to replace everything with proper code once you start growing.

Of course, this is a bit different for low-code tools that are used internally etc.

[upupandup]

Basically this space is deliver multiples on what engineer team would bring at multiple discounts. It's not really a sustainable model because they are constantly viewing it as a cost center even with the productivity no-code tools. So the moment some open source version is released or they see a cheaper solution they will flock to it especially if you allow easy migration. I've had requests from companies who were doing well with the no-code SaaS but felt they were being held hostage/realize they want an internal tool they own because their requireents always devolves past what no-code tool can do.

This might not be an issue for SaaS who already publish their source code but for the vast majority of no-code/low code, it seems to cater to small to medium enterprises who are constantly looking to reduce their cost centers, even after achieving it an optimal setup.

[eagleinparadise]

I am a non-tech founder building a app on building, basically very CRM/Data centric for a specific industry vertical I work in professionally.

I am pushing Bubble to its limits where I have access to approx 150m records with all sorts of other database relationships to many millions of records.

To build this app in a custom software solution, I have been quoted $100k to $500k depending on the backend architecture.

Instead, I am spending around $20-30k in development costs to get my app off the ground to be able to pick up the first paying users... at least that's the goal and I'm a few weeks away from launch.

I would also say that my "MVP" is not like Airbnb's MVP... my hope (and it seems) that it may be functional enough to nearly (70%) replace my existing CRM that I use day to day. Of course, I am planning to transition to a custom software solution once I validate, so I don't see bubble as a long term solution.

I've self taught myself a bit of python and tried teaching myself JS as well off and on, so I am able to generally talk through with software developers what I'm trying to achieve and generally understand the technical things that might be discussed. So I'm not entirely a total non-technical noob.

But the issue with Bubble is there is still a high barrier to actually learning how to use the platform for the average non tech person. It's a black box of sorts and they don't have the best education (unlike webflow). I mean come on, you have to pay $800 to take a bubble sponsored course? Lame. Nonetheless, you learn programming concepts by learning how to build on bubble.

I'll end by replying to the top comment about code being perceived as complex.

Spanish isn't complex. Nor is French. Maybe we can consider Japanese to be more complex. But even then, millions of people speak it just fine. Conjugations in Spanish are complex for a 40 year old English speaker new to Spanish but not complex for a 8 year old native speaker.

But after a certain age, life takes hold, you begin working, and you lose the time and opportunity to spend 100's or 1,000's of hours learning another language. Trying to learn how to code is like this. I sometimes need to carve out 3-6 hours of a day to context-switch away from my busy (non-technical) professional & social life to get back into programming mode.

Low code tools abstract away hours of that complexity you would have to learn, which allows you to start building something functional quicker than you otherwise would have. I know software devs look at low code and say "what's the matter with this crap, I can just spin up a X to do Y in 1 week, this is worthless!". But you are the native Spanish speaker in my metaphor, not the folks learning Spanish way past the days they had time to learn Spanish in college, trying to build the next greatest Spanish hit song to tell their story (i.e. software app!)

[evilduck]

> But you are the native Spanish speaker in my metaphor, not the folks learning Spanish way past the days they had time to learn Spanish in college, trying to build the next greatest Spanish hit song to tell their story (i.e. software app!)

To probably strain the metaphor, native Spanish speakers see this like you're struggling with Spanish so you give up and instead decide to learn Esperanto because it's easier and a few people have sold it as being a good alternative to communicate across cultures. You run off and spend 4 months on Esperanto and have a song written and a catchy tune that is well received, but when the time comes to publish an album for the Spanish speaking world, maybe you've got some notoriety built but you've still got to start over from scratch and learn Spanish. For most people, they aren't going to make a hit song on their first try, they're going to fail and have to try again, so learning those Spanish fundamentals instead of a shortcut might have been a better use of time.