[migro23]

Many people conflate hedonistic pleasure with happiness. This is a big mistake that leads to addiction, selfishness and inevitable dissatisfaction. Even happiness as a sustainable state may be an unrealistic or unattainable goal. For me the answer to this puzzle is a finely tuned balance between self growth and contentment with perhaps a heavier emphasis on contentment. Regular and consistent periods of reflection and appreciation for what you have (no matter how small) is the recipe for promoting states of contentment. Pleasure is ephemeral, happiness comes and goes but contentment can be reliably and directly cultivated.

[bobsmooth]

I disagree, hedonism is underrated.

[migro23]

Some elaboration on your opinion would provide a greater contribution to the discussion. As an aside however, 'Henry' in Oscar Wilde's A Picture of Dorian Gray provided the most beautiful and articulate defence of hedonism I have ever read. But I am still convinced that in relation to the project of the promotion of ones long-term well-being hedonism is a philosophical and psychological dead-end.

In my own experience the more I satiated my hedonistic desires the more I wanted and the less pleasure I attained from doing so. Furthermore it promoted a sense of selfishness in me that made the experience of living less fulfilling. Couple that with my own observations working in a variety of medical settings encountering a wide range of people from all walks of life. Without exception I noticed that the people who were selfish were unhappy and the people who were the most selfish were the most unhappy (correlation not causation I know but pertinent none the less). Generally the people who were most concerned about others well-being were gifted with a light and pleasant demeanour that gave me the strong impression that they were experiencing life in an altogether different (and to my eye more desirable) way than those that were selfish.

And the pattern running through all of that was that selfish people were always unhappy with what they had or what they were given, invariably showed little or no appreciation for anything. Selfless people were always appreciative of everything and anything.

The above is anecdotal but from my prospective not inconsequential. And for me at least, intentionally practising appreciation, when I manage to do so, never fails to have a positive impact on how I feel in the world. Just my two cents.

[riversflow]

> Generally the people who were most concerned about others well-being were gifted with a light and pleasant demeanour

Kinda like the light and pleasant demeanor of Robin Williams? This is crazy ovservation bias, you have no idea of the actual, lived experiences of these people. Honestly, my experience is that people who really suffer with depression are consistently some of the nicest, most thoughtful people. They understand how shitty it is to be down and do as much as they are capable of to try and stop the spread and help themselves, and being appreciative and positive are, as you point out, pretty excellent at making one feel better. People who are constant downers and negative, in my experience, are more self-obsessed and trying to get something.

[migro23]

Completely agree. My views stated above however don't rest purely on these observations because the data (my observations) are inherently noisy. A certain amount of inference needs to be made based on direct behavioural observation of others and with any inference comes a margin of uncertainty. I outlined these observations in response to someone who seemed to object or disagree with my original comment but gave very little in terms of supporting argument. But my views on these matters do not solely rest on observations of others but also by my own experience as a conscious and self aware (I think :) being and reading about the ideas of what others think about this issue of "happiness".

Disclaimer: I don't think my original comment is correct in any absolute sense, but I do believe that it is a more promising and fruitful direction than merely perusing pleasure for its own sake, based on my own experience and the observed behavioral and emotional patterns of some of my most intimate relationships

[DiffEq]

I don't want to speak for him, but I suppose I am until he pipes up, but I think bobsmooth was being sarcastic.

[dag11]

I don't want to speak for bobsmooth either but I'll take their comment at face value until given reason otherwise.

I agree with the sentiment, I think it's underrated. I live a fairly hedonistic life and I'm overall a very happy and content person. But I think hedonism only brings value in the context of an otherwise stable life at its foundation. You could make the argument that it's the stability that brings me happiness, but I've introspected about this a bunch and the pursuit of pleasure really does bring a large chunk of the sustained happiness.

As an aside, one of the common warnings/issues with hedonism is the hedonistic treadmill; that we become accustomed to our current pleasures and receive diminishing returns. But the way I think I get around that by rotating between various pleasures, so once I come back to one in particular it's once again novel.

[bobsmooth]

No, I was serious. Living in the moment and enjoying it is how I try to live my life.

[migro23]

If you are equating 'hedonism' and 'living in the moment' then we have a language issue. Which is understandable as our language for such concepts and our language for mental states in general is not very well defined. My interpretation of hedonism is seeking pleasure for pleasures sake. Pleasure is the end goal and the more that is experienced the better!

Living in the moment is a stated goal of many contemplative disciplines including ones that explicitly eschew any hedonistic tendencies by practicing some flavour of asceticism.

Actually an argument could be made that hedonism can lead you astray from the present moment as your yearnings and desires increase for more and more pleasure the more you try and satiate these desires which usually entails some yearning for some pleasure experience in the future.

Living in the moment it seems is closer to the bullseye in terms of ones ability to experience well being. Hedonism just breeds further desire which by definition gives rise to what Buddhists termed Dukkha which is often poorly translated as 'suffering' but a more apt word would be 'dissatisfaction' (1)

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha

[bobsmooth]

>Pleasure is the end goal and the more that is experienced the better!

Yes.

>as your yearnings and desires increase for more and more pleasure

Why is this an inevitability? I've lived in my current condo for 2 years and I still enjoy the simple pleasure of standing on the balcony that I own.

[dmerrick]

Beautifully put