[syzygyhack]

> I do however have an issue with the incredibly high rate of money laundering etc that flows through crypto.

Incredibly high relative to what exactly? The total exchange volume of the cryptocurrency industry? Can you show some figures to back that assertion? OR are you talking relative to the global economy? In that case, it's not even a drop in the bucket.

Clearly the Tornado Cash team should have simply started a bank instead, then they would only need pay a fine and carry on.

[bilekas]

Incredibly high rate of money laundering in relation to the entire flow of cyrpto.

You should know comparing traditional fiat against crypto doesn't make sense.. But I guess I'm the one who's ignorant.

There is a good paper overviewing a lot here : https://www.unive.it/pag/fileadmin/user_upload/dipartimenti/...

It's more of an essay but all all stats are referenced.

Also another good read : https://ciphertrace.com/q3-2018-cryptocurrency-anti-money-la...

You simply can't argue that money laundering isn't rampant on cypto currencies.

Also just another clarification from your earlier comment :

> Your vitriol against Tornado is misplaced, though not surprising given the general ignorance regarding the blockchain industry on HN.

Blockchain != Crypto

[syzygyhack]

> You simply can't argue that money laundering isn't rampant on cypto currencies.

Actually, I can quite easily argue that. Neither of your sources give evidence or numbers that justify your assertion.

In fact, less than 1% of transactions are shown to be illicit activity, and the majority of that is scams, not money laundering. Here's a report from your 2018 source, CipherTrace, only using more recent data: https://ciphertrace.com/2020-year-end-cryptocurrency-crime-a...

I quote:

> Cryptocurrency, with its similar characteristics, may likewise struggle to ever completely shake its bad reputation, despite illicit transactions making up less than 0.5% of Bitcoin’s yearly volume in 2020.

A more important clarification, which is precisely the reason I used blockchain instead:

Crypto != cryptocurrency.

You conflate the two several times across this thread, they are not the same.

With that aside, I'll ask again. Can you show some figures that back your assertion that there is a "high rate of money laundering flowing through crypto[currency]"? I would assume not, given that the very firms actively working with regulators and monitoring this activity disagree with that assertion.

Here's a nice, sourced writeup for you so that you can spread accurate information and not assumption construed as fact in the future: https://blog.coinbase.com/fact-check-crypto-is-increasingly-...

[bilekas]

I'm not going to be argumentative here, but the last article you referenced. Clearly coinbase would have a bias to promote userbase.

That said :

> Of that small portion, scams make up the overwhelming majority of cryptocurrency related crime.

How do you think those scams will cash out ? Next step - Places like Tornado.

> From 2017 to 2020, criminal economic activity was overwhelmingly conducted through traditional financial institutions.

This is apples and oranges. But a good number to put on paper when promoting a cryptocurrency exchange for sure.

There is just an incomparable amount of traditional fiat currency compared to crypto currency so how someone would even make that argument says a lot.

> Myth #2: More illegal activity takes place using cryptocurrency than with cash.

I have no idea what sincere person would say that myth was true unless it was said as a joke. So no argument there but again, not adding any value. See above comment.

> Myth #3: Cryptocurrency makes it harder for law enforcement to investigate malfeasance.

And the 'Facts' given ignore services like Tornado.cash. Conveniently wouldn't you agree ?

My personal opinion of the CoinBase article is "Shill out of Ten".

[syzygyhack]

> I'm not going to be argumentative here

It does help when you check the numbers before making your assertions.

> Clearly coinbase would have a bias to promote userbase

You discount the post because it is from Coinbase, yet every point made is backed up with up-to-date sources from firms you have already deemed appropriate, such as CipherTrace and Chainalysis. That's an... interesting perspective to hold. A bit of cognitive dissonance going on there, methinks?

> How do you think those scams will cash out ? Next step - Places like Tornado.

From your own sources, usually exchanges which implement KYC/AML policies equivalent to traditional banks. Did you actually read them or do you just plop a few keywords in Google and hope for the best?

> And the 'Facts' given ignore services like Tornado.cash. Conveniently wouldn't you agree ?

You think so, do you? Yet in your other source (https://www.unive.it/pag/fileadmin/user_upload/dipartimenti/...), we get this nugget:

> However, in spite of the money laundering risk associated with cryptocurrency mixing services, tumblers are used for lawful activities more often than for illegal ones.

You don't seem interested in a rational or data-driven discussion so there's little fruit to harvest here, I'll leave you to your imaginings.

[bilekas]

Just to comment one thing lastly.

I think we have two different opinions on a side topic of Money laundering in regards to Tornado.

The original OP is the US Gov and GH overreaching and on that I fully agree.

I don't think your comments should be downvoted to oblivion at all. You definitely make some good points. I don't have all the real data in front of me so I'm just suspicious when there's a tool like Tornado.