[anotheruser092]

I don't get it. Would you be suggesting that truly selfless people don't like to be thanked? If so, I don't understand why that would be a good thing; there's nothing wrong to expect respect or basic appreciation for your help.

[alexashka]

We're using the word differently.

In the context of this thread, gratitude stands for expressing what you appreciate about your relationship with another.

Do you see the problem here? If you like a flower, do you feel the need to thank it? No, right? A flower does what flowers do. So what's different about this scenario? The difference is you're using expression of gratitude as a tactic to manipulate.

If you're thinking, yeah, great idea, everyone manipulates, so what, you're a sociopath :)

As for the way you're using the word gratitude, to mean 'thanks' - sure, social norms dictate acknowledging other human beings in various ways - that's not what this thread is about.

[anotheruser092]

I heard about the flower metaphor before, so I actually hear what you're saying now.

The last time I heard this metaphor was in the context of avoiding too much flattery or dependence on praise of others. So, a well-adjusted person does things because they want to, or a have a responsibility to, without relying too much on praise.

I think this framing is useful for a person too reliant on others' opinions for happiness, but even within this framework, you can still feel happy when others appreciate you (while not reliant on the emotion). So, it's still a positive to give and receive gratitude, so long as both people have a stable sense of self and aren't reliant on gratitude for happiness.

[em-bee]

that makes a lot more sense, but this is from the perspective of the receiver not depending on gratitude. parent poster however goes much further by rejecting gratitude as manipulative, which is a rather toxic attitude.

[0xbadcafebee]

Gratitude, the definition of the word, means "a feeling of appreciation (or similar positive response) by a recipient of another's kindness, gifts, help, favours, or other form of generosity to the giver of such gifts". It is a feeling you get when you appreciate something about some one / some thing other than yourself. Expressing gratitude is communicating that feeling, typically out of a desire to share the feeling, because you want others to feel good feelings too. It has nothing to do with narcissism.

If the flower could hear you, it would like to hear that it made you feel good. Flowers can't hear, but people can.

[alexashka]

Think through what the opposite of gratitude would be.

Gratitude is when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, for your benefit, roughly speaking.

What about when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, to others, but not you?

What do we call that?

Get it? The key ingredient is who gets the goodies? That's what narcissism is, preoccupation with what I'm getting in relation to others. You can't get feelings of gratitude without being preoccupied with comparing yourself to others or your past self first :)

You can get just feeling warm and fuzzy, sharing a cup of tea in the morning, and I'm all for that. Because it doesn't involve intellectualizing your place in the social dominance hierarchy (comparison to others) or 'the world' (comparison to past self), and getting feelings from the conclusion you reach.

Hope that clarifies it a bit :)

[0xbadcafebee]

That logic would mean that any good feeling is narcissism. Which would defeat the purpose of the word narcissism. You would just say "I feel narcissistic" instead of "I feel good" or "I am thankful that I feel good". The only way to know what "good" is, is to compare it to "bad". Any feeling at all would be a comparison against the opposite state your past self felt, so literally any feeling at all would be narcissism. But it's...... not.

Narcissism is an excessive interest in one's physical appearance or image, and an excessive preoccupation with one's own needs. It is excessive self-interest, not any self-interest at all.

Example 1: Self-preservation is the interest in preserving the self over others. But it is not narcissism to consider what you need to keep yourself alive and healthy, before you consider others' welfare. It would be narcissism if somebody was drowning and you first needed to look at your reflection in the water before you tried to save them.

Example 2: If you say "I want you to know that I really enjoyed those cookies you gave me," you are considering your own self-interest, but only in the context of trying to communicate a feeling of joy to the other party with the intent of causing them joy (that they gave you joy). In that case your interest was actually in the other party, not yourself, even if the origin of the act came from a reflection of your own pleasure. On the other hand, it would be narcissism to go on a 30 minute rant of how exactly you want cookies to be made that the other party never asked for.

Example 3: Thinking "I am not currently on fire" and being happy about that is a reflection on one's desires, but not an excessive one. On the other hand, sitting for 30 minutes just wallowing in the feeling of your superiority for not being on fire, or telling other people how great it is that you're not on fire [when nobody asked], would probably border on narcissism. It would definitely be narcissism to tell a burn victim that you are happy you are not on fire.

Also:

> What about when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, to others, but not you? What do we call that?

Doing a good deed? Compersion? Joy? Compassion? Sympathy? Mudita? Mitfreude? What were you trying to imply it was?

[slowmovintarget]

> Gratitude is when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, for your benefit, roughly speaking.

This is incorrect. You have a definition error.

GRAT'ITUDE, noun [Latin gratitudo, from gratus, pleasing. See Grace.]

An emotion of the heart, excited by a favor or benefit received; a sentiment of kindness or good will towards a benefactor; thankfulness. gratitude is an agreeable emotion, consisting in or accompanied with good will to a benefactor, and a disposition to make a suitable return of benefits or services, or when no return can be made, with a desire to see the benefactor prosperous and happy. gratitude is a virtue of the highest excellence, as it implies a feeling and generous heart, and a proper sense of duty.

KINDNESS, noun [from kind, the adjective.]

1. Good will; benevolence; that temper or disposition which delights in contributing to the happiness of others, which is exercised cheerfully in gratifying their wishes, supplying their wants or alleviating their distresses; benignity of nature. kindness ever accompanies love.

There is no man whose kindness we may not sometime want, or by whose malice we may not sometime suffer.

2. Act of good will; beneficence; any act of benevolence which promotes the happiness or welfare of others. Charity, hospitality, attentions to the wants of others, etc., are deemed acts of kindness or kindnesses

NARCISSISM, noun

An exceptional interest in and admiration for yourself.

----

There's an important word in that definition of narcissism: "exceptional." Showing gratitude cannot constitute narcissism as such.

Please stop trying to redefine words.

[alexashka]

Words don't have an objective, immutable meaning that you get to present as facts.

I am however going to concede and withdraw my further participation on the matter.

You may find this interesting: https://philosophyforchange.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/meaning...

[em-bee]

Words don't have an objective, immutable meaning

that's not the point. you can redefine gratitude all you want. but then your use of of the word gratitude no longer applies to the feeling i want to express when someone gives me something.

in other words: your redefinition of the word gratitude to imply narcissism does not make my expression of gratitude narcissistic.

we are talking about observable human behavior here, not about word definitions. if you believe that expressing gratitude is narcissistic then you have a problem. (and if you believe that the definition of a word changes the meaning of an act, then you have two problems)

[em-bee]

i get feelings of gratitude when i feel better than i felt before. there is no comparing to others involved.

feeling gratitude is not at all narcissistic.

[em-bee]

If you like a flower, do you feel the need to thank it? No, right? A flower does what flowers do. So what's different about this scenario? The difference is you're using expression of gratitude as a tactic to manipulate.

ugh, no, the difference is that your partner is a human being that can't read minds. if you expect them to know that you are grateful without expressing it then that may seriously hurt your relationship.

i'd rather think that if you believe that everyone expressing gratitude is manipulative then that makes you the sociopath.

[someguydave]

If you think of other humans in the same way as inanimate objects that provide you things I suspect you might be a sociopath.