[Kamq]

> They might tell me that "it's legal isn't a counterargument," but actually, it is.

The difference here is that this is a category argument, that is to say it's an argument about what is, whereas the argument about legality is about what should be. Arguments about what is vs arguments about what ought to be are very different things.

Additionally, murder generally has a component of crime associated with it, this is why other forms of killing that are government sanctioned also generally don't fall into this category (e.g. killing during war and government sanctioned executions are generally not murder). The legal status is a fairly decent argument that it belongs in a different category, unless you want to invoke natural law.

But, we should note, that the harvesting of meat is currently legal is a terrible counter argument to an argument that it should be illegal. The current legal status of something is immaterial to an argument about what it should be. If it were a good counter argument, we'd never be able to criminalize anything and we'd never be able to legalize anything that was currently illegal. This is, I suppose, fine if you consider every law to be timelessly perfect, and the system of laws to be complete and never need changing. However, I've never met anyone who believes such a thing.

> Should that suddenly be legal, due to their motivation? I don't think so, personally.

You find the argument, personally, unconvincing. That's fine, and a perfectly legitimate position to take. I also assume it's the majority position within society. But, it doesn't make current conditions relevant to a conversations about how they ought to be.

[JohnHaugeland]

> The difference here is that this is a category argument

Yes, that is the nature of legality, and not actually a problem in any way.

Let's try to simplify this without hiding behind any half-correctly used thesaurus words, shall we?

1) It's illegal for a reason

2) Things don't stop being illegal just because someone wants them

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> the harvesting of meat is currently legal is a terrible counter argument to an argument that it should be illegal

You seem to spend a lot of time presuming that someone needs a counterargument.

You haven't made a successful argument yet, and even if you did, it doesn't hold any kind of weight.

When someone explains to you why they aren't very interested in what you said, and your response is "that isn't a valid counter-argument," the net result is that they still won't be very interested in what you said, and the illegal thing remains illegal.

If you want to talk about category arguments, start here: why do you feel that commentary on social media is inherently deserving of weight, and at what point does your failure to garner interest take precedence over whatever your position may be?

.

> You find the argument, personally, unconvincing.

Literally all of society does. This gets discovered every day by someone who really, really wants to explain why the law shouldn't apply to them.

Tassles on the admiralty flag, and all of that.

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> But, it doesn't make current conditions relevant to a conversations about how they ought to be.

I'm not sure why you believe your statements on your opinions of what "ought" to be should bear weight on what is nationally legal.

[Kamq]

> You seem to spend a lot of time presuming that someone needs a counterargument.

Nope. I even said explicitly that just finding an argument unconvincing was enough.

> When someone explains to you why they aren't very interested in what you said, and your response is "that isn't a valid counter-argument," the net result is that they still won't be very interested in what you said, and the illegal thing remains illegal.

Ahh, I see the misunderstanding here. You think I want betting on political events to be legal. I don't particularly care that much about that issue. Though I do tend to lean towards legal by default (pretty sure this is standard liberal policy), you can have this one if you feel particularly strong about it. I want weird internet nerds (decent percentage on this site) to have higher quality arguments.

> why do you feel that commentary on social media is inherently deserving of weight

I don't. Arguing with people on the internet is an entertaining pass-time.

> I'm not sure why you believe your statements on your opinions of what "ought" to be should bear weight on what is nationally legal.

I haven't made any arguments about what should or should not be legal yet. Also the is/ought divide isn't a thing I'm inventing here, it's an old problem defined by Hume (convenience link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem )

[JohnHaugeland]

> Ahh, I see the misunderstanding here. You think

No.

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> Arguing with people on the internet is an entertaining pass-time.

Not for me.

[Kamq]

> Not for me.

Then why do it? Do you feel that commentary on social media has some sort of weight?

[JohnHaugeland]

> Then why do it?

As you should have realized from the previous reply, that was me declining to interact with you further (politely) once I realized you were just having fun arguing, rather than having a good faith discussion.

[Kamq]

> I realized you were just having fun arguing, rather than having a good faith discussion.

I object to this characterization. The discussion was entirely in good faith on my end, and it was about exactly what I discussed in my first post (the nature of the state of illegality of something as a counter argument against an argument for it becoming legal).

I also object to the idea that you can't have fun and be acting in good faith at the same time.

I think I must have said something that gave you the impression that the discussion I wanted to have was about something else (or possibly not said something that I should have). Would it be possible for you to tell me exactly what was/was not said on my end that would have helped in this matter? I would like to make sure misunderstandings don't happen again in the future.

[JoshCole]

> I'm not sure why you believe your statements on your opinions of what "ought" to be should bear weight on what is nationally legal.

Do you not live in the US? I'm not sure why you would be confused about this. It seems like a silly thing to be confused by.

> Literally all of society does.

This is false.

> why do you feel that commentary on social media is inherently deserving of weight, and at what point does your failure to garner interest take precedence over whatever your position may be?

It was made by humans who have inherent worth which I take to be self-evident? And it did garner the interest I was hoping for - I got answers from kinder people than you who explained things to me in easily understood sentences that I found no flaw with. Ctrl+F "thank". Actually even the idea of garnering interest as the important thing seems kind of suspect to me. That small interaction got the least interest out of all that I've said - yet is the one I'm most glad to have made. I would not be greatly saddened if the only interaction I had was with that single post.

[JohnHaugeland]

You seem to be mass replying to everything I've said

I would like to stop interacting with you, because you announced to a third party that I thought they were subhuman over a lower case letter, and won't stop telling me about your religion

Please stop canvassing me now

[JoshCole]

It isn't canvassing for me to engage with you in the sub-thread. Do not forget - originally you were talking to me. Now you might be thinking, well, that doesn't mean you should talk to me in another thread, but recall: You were so rude to me in other replies that your post was killed - I didn't do that, others felt you were that rude. I can't talk to you in the original context.

In other contexts - much like those who found you to be rude, I also found you to be rude to others and not just to me. I commented about it, but I commented about it knowing that if someone just tried to tell you that they were being rude you would find it to be a personal attack rather than a cause for reflection, because you took it that way when someone told you as much in the subthread where you had been talking to me. So instead of stating it generally, I was highly specific. I explained exactly why I found you to be rude rather than leaving you with a mystery as to why your posts keep dying.

If no one tells you why then you'll just end up getting banned eventually. I liked your points, when I moved past the surface of them to what I saw you trying to talk about. I engage with you, because you have a perspective that I find valuable. I am trying to set you up to not be banned by prompting awareness of how you come across.

If you still find me vexing - you've literally been talking with other people about my posts; that you think it inappropriate that I talk with others about your posts is hypocritical.

[JohnHaugeland]

You seem to be mass replying to everything I've said

I would like to stop interacting with you, because you announced to a third party that I thought they were subhuman over a lower case letter, and won't stop telling me about your religion

Please stop canvassing me now