[kgeist]

The Old Norse word for Saturday, laugardagr, literally means "washing day". This custom still survives here in countryside Eastern Europe where many people routinely go to sauna (banya) every Saturday (or Sunday like my family). Before the 20th century, a lot of Eastern Europe (especially Russia) still lived like they lived in the middle ages: 95% of the country were serfs on feudal property living in traditional wooden houses with no modern benefits of civilization, and the bathing culture was pervasive: there were saunas (banyas) everywhere, and most villages were close to a river so water access was not a problem. Saunas were also a place where people gave birth. I find it hard to believe that Russian peasants were living the same lifestyle for centuries and only recently decided to start bathing. My family comes from Old Believers, a religous group which rejected church reforms of the 1600's and went into hiding in taiga, they preserved pretty ancient customs and their bathing culture was pretty intricate: for example, there always must be a separate towel/bucket of water for head, body, feet - this wouldn't have developed without a rich bathing culture before. Those villagers who could not afford their own sauna bathed in... ovens (inside the house). It's one of the older customs still preserved in some places. The traditional oven was pretty large and a whole person could fit in it. My mother was bathed like that when she was a child in their Old Believer village. However, I don't know if this was specific to Eastern/Northern Europe or common in Western Europe, too. I remember reading that due to overpopulation and deforestation it was harder for West Europeans to have frequent bathing every week. But here, population wasn't dense and forests were abundant.

[tuukkah]

Most Finns still go to a sauna weekly to supplement the modern daily showers. In Finnish cities, old apartment buildings don't have a sauna room in every apartment (like in the 1980s) or a time-shared sauna suite in every building (like since maybe the 1940s?). Instead, there were big public saunas in every block or so, and people went bathing there once a week.

In Helsinki, only a handful of those old public saunas remain today, but they are now protected by UNESCO and there's been a revival with several fancy public saunas built downtown in the last years, and the wood-heated ones are still considered the best: https://www.myhelsinki.fi/en/see-and-do/activities/the-best-...

[tlogan]

But Nordic countries become Christian just in 12th century. And it took considerably longer for actual Christian beliefs to establish themselves among the people in these regions.

So all these “don’t bath” nonsense promoted by pope was ignored (like, Pope Innocent IV passed the verdict against Frederick II of being a heathen. The first accusation on his list was the King bathed daily.)

In short, people did not wanted to smell bad but church considered an unwashed body a stinking badge of piety (as mentioned by Saint Francis of Assisi).

[coldtea]

>But Nordic countries become Christian just in 12th century

Which is neither here, nor there, as Christian countries still bathed just fine.

>So all these “don’t bath” nonsense promoted by pope was ignored

They were ignored in Christian countries, include Rome and Byzantium, anyway.

Not to mention, they weren't meant that way anyway. From TFA:

"It’s true that we have medieval sources which warn against “excessive” bathing. But here’s the thing, that wasn’t really about being clean, it was about hanging out naked in bathhouses with the opposite sex. They didn’t want you to not be clean, they wanted you to not be going down the bath house and getting your fuck on. And yeah, some holy people didn’t bathe, notably saints who would forego bathing themselves but bathe sick or poor people. But if you bring that up you are missing the point. Medieval people thought that bathing and being clean was really nice, so giving it up and living with your stank was a sign that you had given up on the corporeal world and only thought of heaven. It was holy because it was uncomfortable, like wearing a hair shirt, or eating vegan, and hitting your chest with rocks and sitting in the desert trying not to wank. You know, standard saint stuff. It is mentioned because it is uncommon and uncomfortable."

[rajup]

Being vegan is holy? Which religion?

[coldtea]

Several, though not "holy" in itself, but befitting a holy person (saint-like behavior).

In this particular instances he means in the practice of Christianity, which in the Catholic and Orthodox version (or the unified version before the schism) had strict lent period, with rules about abstaining from meat (and, for those following the stricter rules, dairy products two in most days (and in the traditional versions, a bread+water diet only on some important holy days). Regular christians followed (and follow) those at their own preference/faith/tolerance level, the clergy, monks, and saints, follow them strictly. And there are several stories of saints who followed them year round.

But of course, veganism is also associated with holy behavior in Hinduism, Buddhism, and such.

[bencollier49]

To add to the above, early medieval fasting rules in Christianity were brutal, arguably much tougher than comparable rules from other major religions at the same time. Then we got decadent.

"Noon" is at lunchtime now because the ninth hour (Nones, Noon, 3pm) prayers, after which one could eat, got moved inexorably earlier to cater to the whims of impious monks.

And incidentally, because it's interesting, fasting and veganism without corresponding prayer was/is seen as Satanic, "The fast of the devils", because "fallen angels neither eat nor pray".

[somedudetbh]

A lot. for example: jainism, zen buddhism (shōjin ryōri), rastafarianism. There are also a lot of religious practices where the religious doctrine doesn't _require_ adherence to a vegan diet, but not eating animal products is considered more holy, and specifically because of the abnegation aspect the post is talking about. Catholics, for instance, have a long and complicated tradition of avoiding animal products for religious reasons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_and_abstinence_in_the_...

[LtWorf]

Do you have a source for this?

I could find nothing written in Italian about this.

[LtWorf]

If no source comes I'll just think it was a rumor spread by protestants to show people they should be protestants.

[zeristor]

“Old Believers” interesting in itself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

[guerrilla]

ohhhh so that's what Raskolnikov. I'm guessing most people don't get that reference when reading C&P.

> The name Raskolnikov derives from the Russian raskolnik meaning "schismatic" (traditionally referring to a member of the Old Believer movement). The name Rodion comes from Greek and indicates an inhabitant of Rhodes.

[codesnik]

There're colonies of russian old believers everywhere. Some were assimilated, like most californian ones. Some colonies are still well, in Brazil for example.

[type0]

Here's one interesting and heart breaking story about an old believer family: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/for-40-years-this-rus...

[macleginn]

The bathing culture was different in different parts of Russia. It is more developed in the north and people in the south, if fieldwork data are reliable, bathed rather infrequently. Of course, this may also have to do with less firewood being available.

(Also Old Believers' bathing practices have a lot to do with notions of ritual purity, so they cannot be easily projected to the general population.)

[mongol]

Yes and this is to this day the Swedish word for Saturday: lördag, from "lögardagen". Same etymology as laugardagr.

[kzrdude]

Well, laugardagr is the etymology, isn't it?

The modern shapes of this weekday name are still used in the scandinavian languages, and Icelandic, Finnish and Estonian.

[mongol]

Yes could be, it is obvious they are related, I don't know if laugardagr is the original or if they have common roots.

[Tagbert]

laugardagr is the Old Norse word. Swedish developed from Old Norse (as did Norwegian and Danish). The Swedish lördag is derived from laugardagr.

The “laug” portion comes from Old High German “louga”, from PIE root leue- "to wash."

The “dagr” portion comes from the PIE root agh- "a day" with an initial “d” added as part of Old High German. OHG is the ancestor of Old Norse.

This is from Etymonline - a great resource for language information https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=laug

[kzrdude]

I think mongol is right to be careful. There wasn't one coherent old Norse, it had east-west variation even then for example.

But it should give the broad strokes, just like talking about PIE is certainly a broad stroke.

[darkerside]

How is one bathed in an oven?

[kgeist]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_stove

"As well as warming and cooking, Russian stoves were used for bathing. Once the stove became hot the burning wood was removed, and cast iron containers were put into the stove and filled with water. That allowed people to bathe inside of the stove. A grown man can easily fit inside, and during World War II some people escaped the Nazis by hiding in the stoves."

[aasasd]

Okay, but can I get a schematic of how that's supposed to work? The opening on the pechka is on the side—what, you slide inside like in an MRI and then somehow chuck water onto yourself?

Pretty sure just filling a proper wooden tub with the hot water is a lot simpler.

For the context, back in my childhood I spent several summers in a house with a pechka (it's still there), and visited a couple others. Those could only fit a child at best, but the principle is the same: you shove the pots from the side into the tunnel above the fire.

[vbezhenar]

https://youtu.be/pUHApERY0G8

[aasasd]

Thanks! This is very illustrative, just like I wanted. (Was too lazy to search myself, of course.)

As expected, it's pretty tight in there. I know that rural people of old were much more fit than I am, and I would get cramps in several muscles of each leg and in my sides after three minutes in there.

[vbezhenar]

I guess that tall people could build bigger ovens for themselves. Also oven usually has some extra space inside, so it's not as tight as it looks. But yeah, of course it's not something one would do other than of necessity.

[sushid]

Thank you! So it's like a warm sponge bath.

[macleginn]

> Pretty sure just filling a proper wooden tub with the hot water is a lot simpler.

Water in a tub gets cold pretty quickly; vessels with water inside a stove keep warm for much longer.

Old school Russian stoves have been hard to find in Russian villages now because they are too big and impractical, but a proper article, like one shown here https://zen.yandex.ru/media/1banya/kak-mylis-v-russkoi-pechi... , can easily fit a grown person.

[eastbound]

> escaped the Nazis by hiding in the stoves

If I understand, the iron containers myst have been extremely hot, how do you walk in? Did the nazis dismiss the possibility of hiding there because it was already hot like an oven?

[aasasd]

I'm guessing people were hiding in cold stoves.