[dmckeon]

When LL Bean started, 90% of his boots were returned, and the purchases refunded - which gave Bean the opportunity to analyze how the boots had failed, redesign them, and send new boots to his dissatisfied customers. Apparent MVP failure becomes better engineering becomes marketing and research. Find out what your users/customers want. sources: posted on the store wall in Freeport, and https://www.ecmag.com/section/your-business/lessons-learned-...

[ghaff]

A number of retailers--REI is another--have pulled back considerably from essentially no questions asked return policies. I've wondered to what degree it is generally more poorly-made goods given that most come from the same Asian factories anyway and to what degree it is a generational shift where more people (though there's always been a subset) will just take advantage of any system they can.

[acdha]

I think the internet has a lot of credit here: there were always scammers but you wouldn’t have had an outdoors magazine publish a column suggesting that you buy something you can’t afford, use it for your trip, and return it because that’s cheaper than renting. That was disturbingly common online prior to REI changing their policies – and you’d see people suggesting it for big items like kayaks or expedition-sized tents, where selling it at the used gear sale was a substantial haircut.

One downside to sharing information easily is that attacks not only get better faster but also that it can hit the “everyone’s doing it!” norm where people start shifting how they feel about it.

[ghaff]

>“everyone’s doing it!” norm where people start shifting how they feel about it.

Yeah. A lot of people won't do something that they think is sort of scummy if they only know one person who does it--and he's sort of an asshole.

But when there's a whole subreddit devoted to the behavior, they may start to think they're the sucker if they don't do what "everyone else" is doing.

And unfortunately with outdoor gear, I've definitely had fairly expensive outdoor gear fail catastrophically after a few years even though it had only been gently used a handful of times. That said, I suspect LL Bean and REI still have some flexibility. I did just have Patagonia credit me for a somewhat older jacket that had completely delaminated--of course their normal prices are so high I'm not sure I'll even use the credit.

[acdha]

> But when there's a whole subreddit devoted to the behavior, they may start to think they're the sucker if they don't do what "everyone else" is doing.

That matched what I saw, too - I’m thinking especially of people like a few grad students I vaguely knew who treated it as a way to “upgrade” from their personal equipment for big trips. They wouldn’t have stolen something worth that much but the loss to REI is invisible.

[mc32]

I could not agree more. I know people who can afford REI (DINKs) and despite that feel they had the “right” to try and then return items.

Yes, some of this was built in to the price but not to the extent people stretched it.

Nordstroms, I guess when it was not a middling retailer, had similar policies.

But people have lost their moral bearings and it’s all about them, like there is no tomorrow.

It’s little different than looting. Looters sometimes loot immediately needed goods, but often it’s jewelry, TVs, electronics and sneakers. These chronic abusers of return policies are in the same moral category.

Very few people give a shit and care about themselves or society. It’s all a free-for-all, with few exceptions.

[mjevans]

A nice alternative would be a return policy where there was a no questions, BUT small fee (20-25% of the cost)? For returns without defects but obvious use.

The above policy should be _combined_ with an equipment rental that is substantially cheaper but expects similar condition returns.

Particularly for apartment renters, the ability to not need to store a large bulky item used 2-3 times in their lifetime would be an upgrade.

[nextos]

Yes, what freaks me out is when companies take any return, repackage it and sell it back as new.

Amazon does this all the time, and I have stopped buying from them. I try to get buy-for-life items. I don't return anything unless it's defective, but I don't want to get pre-owned things sold as new.

[bfuller]

This definitely happens all the time, I get packages whose boxes have obviously been opened before all the time.

People double-dipping amazon products and saying they never got the package (or it was stolen) has been going on forever.

[acdha]

Rentals aren’t badly priced at REI but there are unavoidable costs: liability, cleaning, storage, etc. which people were trying to avoid. The other limit is that they won’t have as large a selection so people who want pricier or niche gear won’t find it at the average rental shop.

[ghaff]

Rentals are available for a lot of equipment. Although there are liability concerns for gear used for relatively high-risk activities. But renting a kayak or a canoe is mostly not that hard--especially if you have a local club.

[blfr]

Not just a generational change but a move to lower trust society.

[antisthenes]

> and to what degree it is a generational shift where more people (though there's always been a subset) will just take advantage of any system they can.

When you're being squeezed by every system, and housing/life goals become increasingly unattainable and wages stagnate - you better be sure that people will try to exploit every system they can.

Can't really even blame them for it, except for some egregious circumstances.

[muro]

Life being difficult doesn't give one the right to cheat their way to make it easier.

[ghaff]

That sounds like rationalizing crappy behavior.