[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

That's not really a fair comparison though. Recursion is strictly necessary to implement several algorithms. Even if "banned" from the language, you would have to simulate it using a heap allocated stack or something to do certain things.

None of this applies to VLA arguments.

[10000truths]

It's not strictly necessary precisely because all recursions can be "simulated" with a heap allocated stack. And in fact, the "simulated" approach is almost always better, from both a performance and a maintenance perspective.

[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

This is simply nonsense. In cases with highly complex recursive algorithms, "unrecursing" would make the code a completely unmaintainable mess, requiring an immensely complicated state machine, which is why something like Stockfish doesn't do that in its recursive search function even though the code base is extremely optimised. And yes, some algorithms are inherently recursive, and don't gain any meaningfull performance from the heap stack + state machine approach.

[10000truths]

> In cases with highly complex recursive algorithms, "unrecursing" would make the code a completely unmaintainable mess, requiring an immensely complicated state machine

Nothing about it is "immensely complicated". Rather than store your recursion state in a call stack, you can store it in a stack of your own, i.e. a heap-allocated container. The state of a cycle of foo(a,b,c) -> bar(d,e,f) -> baz(g,h) -> foo(...) becomes expressible as an array of tagged union of (a,b,c), (d,e,f) and (g,h).

And there is nothing inherently unmaintainable about this approach. I would hope that it's a commonly taught pattern, but even if it's not, that doesn't make it impossible to understand. Picking good names and writing explanatory comments are 90% of the battle of readability.

> which is why something like Stockfish doesn't do that in its recursive search function even though the code base is extremely optimised

I can't speak for what Stockfish devs do, as I have no insight into which particular developers made what set of tradeoffs in which parts of their codebase. But it doesn't change the reality that using your own stack container is almost always more performant and more extensible:

1. Your own stack container can take up less space per element than a call stack does per stack frame. A stack frame has to store all local variables, which is wasteful. The elements of your own stack container can store just the state that is necessary.

2. Your own stack container can recurse much farther. In addition to the previous point, call stacks tend to have relatively small memory limits by default, whereas heap allocations do not. In addition, you can employ tricks like serializing your stack container to disk, to save even more memory and allow you to recurse even farther.

3. Your own stack container can be deallocated, shrunk, or garbage collected to free memory for further use, but a call stack typically only grows.

4. Your own stack container can be easily augmented to allow for introspection, which would require brittle hackery with a traditional call stack. This can be an extremely useful property, e.g. for a language parser resolving ambiguities in context sensitive grammars.

> And yes, some algorithms are inherently recursive, and don't gain any meaningfull performance from the heap stack + state machine approach.

Using a heap-allocated stack container is recursion. It is the state machine. The only fundamental implementation difference between the approach I describe and traditional recursion is that the former relies on the programmer using an array of algorithm state, and the latter relies on the runtime using an array of stack frames.

[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

First of all, my original point was only that comparing recursion to VLAs was not a reasonable comparison, not to make some profound point about your favourite way to implement recursion. So, chill dude.

1. This is often irrelevant, depending on your priorities. Taking stockfish as an example again, memory is not what's at a premium, search nodes is. The search space is inherently intractable. You're never gonna be able to recurse meaningfully deeper by shaving off some stack space, because the breadth of the tree grows exponentially in the number of plies. The only form of optimisation that helps here is caching and various heuristics to avoid searching certain nodes at all

2. You know you can change the stack size, right? This is what Stockfish does for its search threads. No need for fancy dynamic allocation here. Also, have fun watching shit get interesting interesting when you have to realloc() ncpu huge chunks of contiguous memory balls deep into a search, when the engine is in time trouble... Sometimes resizing allocated memory is simply not an option.

3. Again this is not always relevant. Stockfish needs its big stacks all the time. So big whoop.

4. This Stockfish does need to do, which is why it keeps an array of structs(never resized) for that purpose. But Stockfish also needs to make decisions about when things move between the different stacks, which is why it uses recursive calls despite having a stack on the heap also.

5. It's obvious I am aware of this. My original comment literally said that banning recursion would force you to implement recursion manually anyway using a state machine. Like, dude, you're literally repeating my own comment back at me as if I didn't already know it. What's up with that?

The point here is: yes, in some specialised cases it might be preferable to implement the recursion yourself if the problem calls for it. But other times, and I'd argue most of the time, this is not necessary. So just use the already available abstraction provided by language. Your line of reasoning is a bit like arguing for not using C at all, because it will be slower than assembly in some cases. sure, write hand optimised assembly in your hot paths if you need to, but most people don't. Abstractions are generally our friends, they help us write clearer, more consise code.

[msla]

> It's not strictly necessary precisely because all recursions can be "simulated" with a heap allocated stack.

This just moves the problem from a stack blowout to a heap blowout.

> And in fact, the "simulated" approach is almost always better, from both a performance and a maintenance perspective.

I am unsure about the performance, but turning recursive code implementing a recursive procedure into iterative code which has to maintain a stack by hand cannot possibly improve readability unless the programmers involved are pathologically afraid of seeing recursive code.

[vlovich123]

Computers have many GiBs of heap space. Your thread has MiB of stack. Tell me. Which is the bigger problem?

This is also ignoring the fact that the memory usage for recursive algorithms is higher because there’s a bunch of state for doing the function call being pushed onto the stack that you just don’t see (return address, potentially spilling registers depending on the compiler’s ability to optimize, etc). Unless you stick with tail recursion but that’s just a special case where the loop method would be similarly trivial. Case in point. I implemented depth first search initially as a recursive thing and blue out the stack on an embedded system. Switched to an iterated depth first search with no recursion. No problem.

OP said “it’s the only way to solve certain problems”. That’s clearly not true because ALL recursive algorithms can be mapped to non recursive versions.

I never got the fascination with implicit recursion. It’s just a slightly different way to express the solution. Personally I find it usually harder to follow / fully understand than regular iterative methods that describe the recursion state explicitly (ie time and space complexity in particular I find very hard to reason about for recursion.)

[saagarjha]

Definitely not.

[throw827474737]

For the can be, or performance, or maintenance perspective?? With example please ..

[saagarjha]

You’ll find it difficult to beat a construct that has dedicated language support. Trying to fake function calls without actually making function calls is difficult and going to have poor ergonomics.