[Yizahi]

Sure, we would love to have less surveillance. That's why tokenbros promote a system which allows even more control, even more surveillance and is basically 100% transparent for every single human forever. And then tokenbros wonder why people on HN and on programming subs hate tokens. ThEy DoN't UnDeRsTaNd It (c).

[ETH_start]

Not having to submit to surveillance laws like KYC is a big step towards ending surveillance. No other form of electronic money provides the ability to transact without complying with such laws.

As for the traceability associated with public validation of transactions: that can be solved with zero knowledge proofs which I alluded to earlier. Indeed you don't understand the technology which is why you persist in these criticisms.

[Yizahi]

Except you do, and in much worse way. Instead of semi-transparent and regulated banks and other financial structures, at least pretending to be for humans, now tokenbros want us to succumb to the completely closed private pseudo-banks and exchanges, operating in some non extradition offshores, which STILL DEMAND KYC but do it completely opaque, not beholden to any rules, can ban you or block your tokens for whatever reason and have zero customer support or ways to appeal bans and blocks. And often operated literally by convicted criminals, for previous frauds. Amazing.

Just as an example - in reply above in this thread, your sour brother in this Church of St. Saylor provides Tornado as an example of of how private tokens are. But he is completely clueless about it, because the moment some of your tokes pass through it, then ALL your tokens become tainted. And majority of the exchanges will just ban you or block if that will happen. What an amazing future - if you want to be private, you must use some shady money laundromat and then risk losing all your tokens. Great idea. And there are other implications, like fouling other people wallets with Tornado tokens etc.

PS: oh wait, it was also you, that's funny :)

[ETH_start]

I am not talking about exchanges, which are not cryptocurrency. I am talking about on-chain finance, which in theory, can supersede the entire financial system, negating the need to interface with off-chain entities like exchanges.

Yes, this is all speculated/unrealized potential at the moment, but the potential is there nonetheless.

[adultorata]

In a way yes, you don't understand it completely, DeFi space is close to solving inflation, we're just really really early, yes, 99% of tokens will die, but that 1% that lives will be the building foundation of the future of smart money, novel winning economist Hayek proposed denationalisation of money and we are finally witnessing it, I do seriously think you don't understand it.

[Yizahi]

Well, you didn't understand even my short comment, so there is that :) . Fundamentally all tokens have exact same issues, one of the which I have mentioned. That mythical 1% will also have them. Either it will be truly decentralised and be a surveillance dystopia, or it's authors will lie and it will be centralised.

I don't pretend to understand world economic (unlike tokenbros claim so), but at least I understand enough to be horrified by the ultra centralised unaccountable and nonpunishable corporate dystopia which tokenbros promote. The fact that they claim their tokens help common people or help reduce inequality is even more infuriating.

[ETH_start]

Are you familiar with https://tornado.cash? It negates your argument that decentralization/public-auditability inescapably enables a surveillance dystopia.

[Yizahi]

Oh, great, now to have same baseline semi-privacy as with money, I need to funnel my tokens through the money laundromat, and then get ALL my tokens tainted and account banned by all major exchanges, reducing me to even more fraudlent no-name exchanges forever. You have no clue not only about world economics, but even about how your tokens operate in reality. Great job. Have fun staying rich as your cult says ;)

[ETH_start]

You're moving the goalposts.