[badcppdev]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chrome_Dome

Crazy times. 1960 - 1968 The United States flew nuclear armed bombers to the borders of the USSR 24 hours a day.

Imagine if 'insert country name' flew armed bombers to the border of 'insert western country name' every day in 2022.

[upsidesinclude]

Not to get you nervous, but the Russians run bombers to the airspace of Alaska all the time.

US jets intercept and turn them around.

It's the expensive version of the border crossings between India & Pakistan

[wahern]

Don't they do this more like yearly? And they don't usually breach airspace generally considered sovereign, though they might fly into airspace the target country itself believes sovereign. AFAIU, these flights are similar to the yearly runs the U.S. Navy makes through some disputed territorial waters; that is, principally intended to preserve normative freedom of movement rights, albeit in a military context obviously serving strategic security interests.

[upsidesinclude]

No

[wahern]

Here's a typical news report which appears approximately yearly: https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/10/20...

To wit,

> F-22 Raptors from the North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD, intercepted a group of Russian aircraft in international airspace near Alaska Monday night.

> In a series of tweets early Tuesday morning, NORAD said the Raptors intercepted a pair of Russian Tu-95 “Bear” bombers escorted by Su-35 fighters. NORAD said it also identified a Russian A-50 airborne early warning and control aircraft supporting the other Russian planes that “loitered” in the Alaska Air Defense Identification Zone and came within 30 nautical miles of Alaska’s shore.

> NORAD said that all Russian aircraft remained in international airspace and at no time entered U.S. or Canadian airspace.

Another example, from 2015: https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/09/politics/russian-bombers-u-s-...

> The U.S. military performed two intercepts of Russians aircraft, though they never entered U.S. airspace, according to a U.S. military official.

> In Alaska, F-22s took off to identify and track two TU-95 Bear bombers near the Southern coast. The two bombers were followed until they turned around.

> [...]

> Similarly off the coast of California, F-15s tracked two other TU-95s that had been detected near the coast of San Francisco. The incident in California was a rarity, because Russian forces don’t generally travel that far South. However, this was reminiscent of a similar flight Russia performed off the West coast on July 4 three years prior.

If anything, their frequency is less than yearly, at least off the U.S. coast, especially before 2015 (and within the range of internet memory). They seem far more common (and aggressive) in Europe, which I expected. And I can't find one example where the Russian aircraft breached U.S. territorial airspace. Sincere question: can you provide examples?

EDIT: Here's a 2008 story addressing Sarah Palin's claims about "incursions": https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/after-palins-inter...

> The air-defense identification zone, almost completely over water, extends 12 miles past the perimeter of the United States. Most nations have similar areas.

> However, no Russian military planes have been flying into that zone, said Maj. Allen Herritage, a spokesman for the Alaska region of the North American Aerospace Defense Command, at Elmendorf Air Force Base near Anchorage.

> “To be very clear, there has not been any incursion in U.S. airspace in recent years,” Herritage said.

> What Palin might have been referring to was a buffer zone of airspace that extends beyond the 12-mile strip. Although not recognized internationally as the United States’ to protect, the military watches it.

> That zone is where there has been increased Russian bomber exercises, about 20 in the past two years. When Russian bombers enter that expanded area, sometimes called the outer air-defense identification zone by the military, U.S. or Canadian fighter jets are dispatched to check them, Herritage said.

[eesmith]

There seem to be a few issues.

1) "The United States flew nuclear armed bombers to the borders of the USSR 24 hours a day."

That is true. One of the linked-to examples is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Giant_Lance "These bombers were to patrol the Northern polar ice caps to survey the frozen terrain, whilst armed with nuclear weaponry.[4][6][2] The patrols consisted of eighteen-hour long vigils, which were executed with the intention of appearing as suspicious movements from the US."

2) Do Russian planes military fly close to the US on a more than yearly occurrence?

Yes. That is without a doubt, as you have show.

3) Do US planes do the same?

Yes. https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2014/09... mentions "China denied any reckless flying and said it would continue responding to U.S. surveillance flights off its coast, which Beijing believes are a threat to its security." and famously https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

For Russia, https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-says-fighter-intercepted-u-s-... "Russia says a fighter jet intercepted two U.S. military surveillance planes in the Black Sea" and of course there are currently a lot of NATO surveillance flights watching the Russian border now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_EP-3#Other_incidents lists two close passes of a US EP-3 by a Russian Su-27, and one by a Venezuelan Su-30.

4) Are any of these to preserve "normative freedom of movement rights"?

No.

5) Do any of them "usually breach airspace generally considered sovereign"?

No.

[wahern]

The original claims were:

> 1) the Russians run bombers to the airspace of Alaska all the time. 2) US jets intercept and turn them around. 3) It's the expensive version of the border crossings between India & Pakistan

If we're charitable, then in isolation #1 is reasonable. But not so much in the context of #2 and #3. Note that actual cross-border incursions are very common between India & Pakistan. As well as between India and China, for that matter, and a host of other country pairings. Moreover, the phrasing "turn them around" reflects connotations similar to phrasing like "escort", commonly used in popular news reports. But nobody is actually escorting here; that's propaganda. U.S. fighters aren't "escorting" Russian bombers any more than the Chinese "escort" U.S. SIGINT flights or naval water transits; the planes and ships continue on their same, planned courses--excepting occasional aggressive maneuvers were the Chinese behave like their going to ram a plane or ship.

AFAICT, no territorial violations are happening here, which IMO is what was implied. Moreover, especially during the Cold War, the U.S. had a long and sorted history of actual incursions into Russian and Soviet airspace; incursions far more numerous and serious than what the U.S. experienced.

I took umbrage with the claims because, while I believe as a general matter Russia is a far more prolific violator of international norms, including territorial incursions, when it comes to their dealings with the U.S. in this regard they've actually been sticklers for obeying boundaries, notwithstanding characterizations to the contrary. And at least since the end of the Cold War, the U.S. has likewise been rather good about that as well. And these characterizations matter because they're at the center of Russian accusations regarding how the U.S. and NATO has treated Russian security interests.

Regarding this specific point:

> > 4) Are any of these to preserve "normative freedom of movement rights"?

> No.

I disagree. When Russia sends bombers toward the U.S., they're generally going to deliberately penetrate the "buffer zone", just like U.S. ships and planes will deliberately penetrate China's self-defined buffer zones. To do otherwise would be to risk legitimizing claims about the nature of those buffer zones. In other words, part of the exercise is to maintain the normalcy of the internationally recognized, more circumscribed sovereign claims.

I do concede that these flights by Russia happen far more often than once a year. I've been following foreign affairs for over 20 years and have known about these practices, but clearly judging their frequency by the frequency of reporting is especially error prone.

[badcppdev]

That's not even remotely the same as flying multiple bomber missions every single day.

Imagine every time you tuck your children into bed you know that there are nuclear weapons heading towards your home. Hopefully tonight they turn away at the border again.

[ilamont]

IIRC it was going on even longer than that, although perhaps on a reduced frequency. My barber worked at an air base in North Dakota late in the Cold War and mentioned something about that.

[badcppdev]

I would suggest reading some history books to round out stories like that.