[klibertp]

> that's pretty unfair.

Hilarious. I wonder what a plumber or carpenter would say if you were to complain to them on how unfair your job is, because 10% of your output doesn't show in the finished product, yet you are still paid for that output. Imagining the reaction to that just made my day.

[wutbrodo]

The enormous silliness of this argument doesn't seem to stop it from popping up all over the place. People's expectations are relative to their environment. The large majority of things you might think to complain about in your life would look hilarious to a caveman or a medieval peasant or even someone from 1980. Similarly, the vast majority of HN users are extremely high-percentile for global wealth and income: this would be a very boring place if people bought in to your paralyzing insistence that you can't ever discuss improvements to something because problems larger than it exist somewhere in the world.

It's a worldview that's so nonsensical that it's its own reductio ad absurdum: If a fast-food worker complained about wanting to be treated with dignity at work, would you similarly scoff at them because coal miners or sweatshop workers don't even get physical safety?

Having high standards is a _good_ thing. It's the hallmark of society's progress. It doesn't preclude being grateful for the privileges you do have, and it's nothing to be ashamed of unless your self-esteem is so low that you think you don't deserve to be treated well.

[klibertp]

These two things taken together:

> People's expectations are relative to their environment. [...] Similarly, the vast majority of HN users are extremely high-percentile for global wealth and income

> Having high standards is a _good_ thing. It's the hallmark of society's progress.

seem to suggest you subscribe to the "trickle-down" ideology. I don't. No, having pockets of "extremely high-percentile" people who are entitled to complain about "unfairness of 10% of their work not being appreciated" is not a hallmark of society progress. It's closer to systemic exploitation. It's a pattern we should know very well from history lessons. No bread? Let them eat cake! Sure. Just brace for the impact when the bubble bursts - there's a sharp blade at the end of this road.

> it's nothing to be ashamed of unless your self-esteem is so low that you think you don't deserve to be treated well.

Because having 100% of someone's work accepted as useful when it's not - for whatever reason - is a basic human right that everyone deserves. That's called "being treated well". I didn't know; I thought not getting 100% sunny days in a year is called "just life", but now I know it's a violation of my rights. How could I be so wrong for so long?

I'm being sarcastic, but you have to accept this comment in its entirety and tell me how happy you are that I wrote it for you. I put work into writing it. I deserve being praised for it, no matter how much you like what I wrote. Right? Please, do treat me well.

How's that for a reductio ad absurdum?

[camgunz]

> Because having 100% of someone's work accepted as useful when it's not - for whatever reason - is a basic human right that everyone deserves.

Again this wasn't what I was saying. My argument is that engineering time (and time in general) is valuable, and we should be careful how we spend it. In other words: if, over the course of a project, you're wasting a lot of time, that's bad if you care about the project (and you probably should). Maybe you disagree, but I don't think this falls under the "entitled millennial SWE" category, but rather the "we can do better" category.

I'll also, for the sake of discussion here, say I've done some pretty shitty work and have benefited tremendously from code review and general discussions with my colleagues. I'm definitely not someone who thinks they're a "extremely high-percentile" person, probably above average, but definitely not like a Brad Fitzgerald or something.

[camgunz]

> I wonder what a plumber or carpenter would say if you were to complain to them on how unfair your job is

I feel like this is a pretty uncharitable caricature of my position. I'm not whining about all my work not getting in. I'm saying, "We're building houses for poor people, I care about this, you had me spend a week on this thing you said was going into one of the houses, you were wrong, I blew a week of work that could've gone to building the houses, and winter is coming". It's not about me personally, it's about me caring about efficiency.

> yet you are still paid for that output

I don't only work to be paid. It's a necessary but not sufficient component. I try to find fulfilling work that I think improves peoples' lives, and I'm fortunate enough to achieve that more often than not. I'm not saying I'm not selfish, just that I'm not entirely selfish, haha.

[pflenker]

Plumbers and carpenters find purpose in what they do, and so do engineers. Getting paid is just one factor of several for job satisfaction.