[wincy]

Serious question though, what’s the pay like for a software engineer in Switzerland? The last time I checked it was something around half or less of what a software engineer can make in a third tier city in the USA. I can deal with not being in a union when I make close to three times the average cost of living in my area and would be very surprised if a union could negotiate a better rate or better working conditions as a software engineer.

[danaris]

So many tech workers bring out this line, that they don't think a union could negotiate a better deal for them.

Really? You really think that you are the best negotiator out of everyone who could join a union local in your area? You really think that by yourself you have more leverage than if you were negotiating alongside everyone else in a similar position within your company?

You look at the amount, and see that it's good, and you make a whole bunch of assumptions founded on stereotypes about unions, and come to the conclusion that you are the specialest person around...and it's a very seductive thing to believe.

But it's just one more way the people making dozens or hundreds of times more than you screw you over.

[JoshTriplett]

> You really think that you are the best negotiator out of everyone who could join a union local in your area?

That's not the sole determining factor. The question is not "can someone else do a better job negotiating for what I want", the question is "will someone else do a better job negotiating for what I want, and will I be able to successfully convince them to do so".

It's valid to ask "does this negotiating body actually represent me". Sometimes it does, sometimes it does not. But it's not reasonable to ignore and dismiss people who believe it does not, and who believe they're unlikely to be able to change that.

In the context of the article, it sounds like this organization is quite likely to represent the goals of its members, and I hope that it stays that way.

[kennywinker]

I think it’s just another way of saying they think unions level the pay scale (bring up the bottom, bring down the top) and they believe they’re above the median line.

I’m not sure if that’s actually the effect unions have, but assuming it is - that position is still so incredibly selfish. Even if you are on the high end, you weren’t aways. Hold the door open for the next generation. Lift everybody up. Let everyone get a first helping before you go back for seconds.

[charcircuit]

>Even if you are on the high end, you weren’t a[l]ways

But the past inexperienced me didn't bring as much value as the current me so it makes sense that I made less.

[kennywinker]

1. Are you paid for the value you bring to the company, or are you paid for some function of the value you bring and the market value of your skills? Seems to me the largest portion of your pay is the market value. Collective bargaining is playing with the market value, not the value you bring.

2. "Value you bring to the company" is an odd way to look at most jobs. Like what's the impact on productivity of the 25 engineers in an office if the trash hasn't been taken out in three weeks? Janitorial labor is contributing to the overall income of the company in ways that may not be direct, but ARE real. Same would apply for junior engineering tasks.

3. While I'm a fan of the idea of everyone earning the same hourly wage within a company for above reasons, unions MIGHT flatten the payscale a bhit, but they don't usually result in a FLAT payscale. So you will still earn more based on some ladder - years with the company, title, value you bring, etc.

[charcircuit]

Although you quoted "Value you bring to the company" I did not say that. Your value to the company is separate from the value you bring the company.

If a company has button that when pressed makes them $1M. A person they hired for that role brings them $1M in value assuming they had no one to push the button before. The value of that person is very low since they can easily find a replacement.

[kennywinker]

I was using quotations in the sense of so-called - not a direct quotation.

[mistrial9]

talk to a twenty year veteran software developer who is systematically passed over due to "bad cultural fit" about your salary survey.

[dghlsakjg]

There are plenty of 50 year old developers I know who are VERY actively pursued by recruiters.

Maybe it’s because he really is a “bad cultural fit”.

Everyone meets an asshole every now and then, if you meet assholes all the time, maybe the problem is that you’re an asshole…

[40yearoldman]

I am over 40, get paid over 700k a year. Just a normal software engineer at a normal company.

Unions would mean I get paid less, and the guy sitting next to me who can’t find his way around a computer would get paid more.

I know you folks like to say it’s a stereotype of unions, but unions really only protect the lazy. If you do your job well companies will fight over you. If you are not so good at your job that union sure does sound like a good idea.

Weren’t police unions why we have bad police?

[bpodgursky]

Like even if this was true in 5% of dysfunctional startups, there's a vast pool of mature tech companies desperate to hire good developers.

And even beyond that, there is an even larger pool of NON-tech companies desperate to hire ANY developer at all.

I don't want to pretend that this doesn't happen, and it sucks, but this does not block any competent developers from software employment.

[ThrowawayR2]

As if twenty years of employment implied any particular level of competence or automatically entitled one to a job. There's plenty of demand out there for anyone halfway decent regardless of age.

[soco]

I make over 140k in Switzerland and I'm definitely no genius yet still in demand at over 50. It can be done.

[thecopy]

Seems to be around 100-200k https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&c...