[hans1729]

This asserts that Russian aggression would transcend across NATO-borders. Is that a given?

1. Party Z invades Country U. 2. Continent C denounces the invasion of U and sanctions Z. 3. Z retaliates against C.

Does an act of retaliation (weaponizing Gas) from Z towards C count a declaration of war? Because if not, who exactly did Russia declare war on? Europe is many things, most prominently a continent and an idea. Was Germany declared war on? If not, is it reasonable to assume that Germany will be declared war on, and if so, which escalations from which involved party would lead to that?

(As always, I don't have strong opinions, just trying to make up my mind on what to expect/how to read the situation)

[ceejayoz]

> This asserts that Russian aggression would transcend across NATO-borders. Is that a given?

Not before first weakening and fracturing NATO.

Brexit split England off the EU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...). Trump expressed strong doubts about staying in NATO (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-presiden...) and was at the very least sympathetic towards Putin at times (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44852812). These are opening salvos.

[Scarblac]

I see cutting off the EU's has supply as very similar to war, and they started doing that last November. So they will again, the moment the EU doesn't do exactly what Russia says.

[s1artibartfast]

The same thing holds true for freezing Russia's foreign Reserves.

In many ways the EU and Russia are at War. It's just not a shooting War

[Scarblac]

Yes, that is exactly what is going on. And we can stop "shooting", but then Russia has no incentive to do the same. They would just conclude that they had won.

[s1artibartfast]

I think we agree. I'm just surprised by the number of people don't view the situation as EU and russia already in conflict. legal agreements, law, and norms are largely irrelevant when you are fighting a war with another country, and this line is crossed with respect to the EU and Russia.

I still see people saying Russia cant cut off gas, or demand payments in rubles because some contract doesn't allow it. Those contracts went out the window a long time ago.

[frostburg]

I mean, that happened after they started an actual shooting war of naked aggression. It would be difficult to argue against the ECB spending every cent of russian money on pornographic gatcha microtransactions live while daring Putin to do something about it, at this point.