[Gravityloss]

If it's a lot cheaper for similar range, yes. Or if it has better range for same price (ie compared to a small battery electric car).

It depends on your driving profile. For most of the year, I do small trips, below 50 km per day. Then I do maybe 10 200-400 km trips a year.

I could get maybe 80% electric kilometers with a modest plugin hybrid.

[pornel]

The problem is that hybrids are good only for range anxiety. You assume you're getting an EV and a great range — best of both worlds. The reality is that you get worst of both worlds: a crappy low-end EV experience with worst-case charging, and a poor ICE car with even less cabin/cargo space than a pure ICE (and much less than a pure BEV).

In hybrids, the battery is very tiny, so lasts for a day or two instead of a week or more. This means having a home charger is an absolute necessity. Small batteries don't support rapid charging, so you won't be able to use many public chargers, even if you were patient enough to wait hours instead of minutes.

Horesepower of hybrid cars is advertised as a sum of EV+ICE engines together, but that's a rare scenario. You'll be mostly using underpowered EV-only half when you can, and then the underpowered ICE-only half when you run out of juice.

When you're on electricity, you're lugging an ICE engine, and when you're road tripping, you have worse fuel economy due to lugging a useless battery and an EV motor (regen doesn't do much even when it works, and highway cruising is the worst-case scenario for it).

In many hybrids transmission/clutch adds a lag, so you don't get the sweet instant torque BEVs are known for.

You have worst-case maintenance costs. On top of all the moving parts of an ICE engine and a complex gearbox, your battery will wear out sooner. A small battery will tend to be cycled 100% to 0%, instead of kept in the 80%-50% range that is much gentler for lithium batteries.

[patentatt]

As a recent PHEV purchaser, I have to disagree on most counts. All typical driving is fully electric, meaning routine commuting, shopping, etc. is all covered by the battery. The home charger is required, but so so simple because it fully charges off a normal (15A) circuit overnight. So it's literally just plugged in to a normal wall outlet. No big deal. Sure you're lugging around the ICE, but it has a much smaller and lighter battery compared to an all electric. Id be curious to see what the real weights involved are, but it's not like you're adding an ICE to a full electric battery. The thing still gets 46mpg even when the battery is depleted, which is better than any other ICE car I've ever had. And there is no transmission in the electric power train as far as I can tell, if there is it's seamless. As for maintenance costs, we'll see. I suspect your analysis will be at least partially correct, having the two independent drive trains and the system to combine them seems like a minefield of long term maintenance. But that was the risk I was willing to take given all of the other benefits.

[thinkling]

Like patentatt, I disagree with most of this. Which PHEVs are you looking at?

Some can blend power from electric and gas motors and give you the combined power output for modest durations almost any time--and then will use excess ICE capacity or regenerative breaking to recharge the battery.

Yes, of course you plug in any time you're home. Not an issue if you have off-street parking, any outlet works.

Transmission/clutch lag--which car have you driven? Does not exist at all in mine (GM Volt), have not heard anyone mention it in reviews of RAV4 Prime or other recent PHEVs.

It is in fact the best-case scenario for some driving profiles.

I have many modest-distance trips around town, and ~30 long drives a year, at least 10 of which would require a midway additional hour of charging in a BEV, with half the drive through an area that has no fast chargers and will not get any in the next 3 years.

[Gravityloss]

The used plug in hybrid we test drove certainly wasn't crappy. The torque was great, and driving purely electrically at low speeds was nice.

It was about half the price of a comparable used all electric car.

But it was still too expensive, so I ended up buying a used diesel, less than half the price of the hybrid.

Charging at home will probably be possible in a few years so then it's even more desirable to get a fully or partially electric car.

[Gravityloss]

To clarify, for our use case: electric: $40k, plugin: $20k, diesel: $10k. Charging is also still very immature and unreliable.

Electric cars can become mainstream but it requires still some problem solving, both technical and nontechnical.

[gambiting]

The funny thing is that everything you said makes sense on paper, but in reality none of it matters.

I have an XC60 T8 PHEV, it's the best car I have ever owned, hands down.

>>a crappy low-end EV experience with worst-case charging, and a poor ICE car with even less cabin/cargo space than a pure ICE (and much less than a pure BEV).

Don't see it at all. It charges in 3 hours - what's the problem? That I can't rapid charge it on the motorway? Ok, fair. The space inside it is the same as in a petrol XC60. There is no compromise.

>>You'll be mostly using underpowered EV-only half when you can, and then the underpowered ICE-only half when you run out of juice.

The EV motor isn't super powerful, but it's absolutely sufficient for driving around. And the ICE is 320bhp in this model, it's far far far far from "underpowered". It's a rocketship, and I owned an actual Mercedes-AMG before. In the mode where both ICE and EV motors work together this car will outaccelerate anything due to the instant torque.

>>you have worse fuel economy due to lugging a useless battery and an EV motor (regen doesn't do much even when it works, and highway cruising is the worst-case scenario for it).

Maybe, but this car averages 50mpg(imperial) on long journeys anyway, so I really don't see a downside here. Regular Petrol XC60 struggles to keep 40. Diesel XC60 would beat it, but who wants a diesel. And my long term(2 years+) average overal is 120mpg, so really......whatever?

>>In many hybrids transmission/clutch adds a lag, so you don't get the sweet instant torque BEVs are known for.

Many, but not all - in the XC60 the EV motor is mounted directly on the rear axle so it doesn't go through the transmission at all. It accelerates instantly like any EV.

>>You have worst-case maintenance costs. On top of all the moving parts of an ICE engine and a complex gearbox

I'm seeing the opposite after couple years of ownership - the ICE almost never runs, so it doesn't suffer any wear. At every oil change the oil is completely clear - the motor is practically brand new. After 20kk miles the brake pads are 5% worn, because you do most breaking by regenerative breaking. So far this car is saving me a fortune in running costs and maintenance, and I don't see why this shouldn't continue. If anything, this car and its drivetrain will far outlast any regular ICE car out there.

>>your battery will wear out sooner.

If this was an actual concern, the manufacturer wouldn't give it 8 years warranty. It's longer warranty than on my actual real proper BEV that I also have.

[brianwawok]

Exactly. They were made to check compliance boxes and not be a useful car.

[SV_BubbleTime]

I don’t think you or GP have owned one.

I’m an automotive EE, I’ve had almost all types of vehicles to drive. I really like the Wrangler plug in hybrid. My week to week saw almost zero gas being used, it was like having a full electric and I could still drive wherever I wanted. With 4Low and diff lockers. Loved it!

I drive ~12mi a day, works great for me, but I know it’s not for people with commutes.

[Lio]

Is that 12 miles a day a single commute? i.e. 6 miles each way?

Personally I'd just ride my bike for that and if I was unwilling or unfit to cycle 12 miles a day[1] I'd go with an electric bike.

(That would actually save me time I would otherwise spend training but I realise I am an odd outlier).

1. Not judging here, everyone has their own fitness levels and goals.

[twblalock]

Plug-in hybrids are in a weird spot in the market. People who have access to home charging can buy long-range EVs which are much nicer to drive. People without access to home charging can buy non-plug-in hybrids or gas-powered cars. Most plug-in hybrids cost a bit more than the non-plug-in versions of the same car and their battery-only driving range is quite short.

No matter where you are in the car market, plug-in hybrids are a weird compromise, delivering all the slowness of a hybrid and the requirement to have access to charging like an EV, for more money than a normal hybrid car.

[tempestn]

The other disadvantage hybrids have is that you have all the complexity of a both an electric and a gas car. One nice thing about full electric is that you do away with much of the regular maintenance of an ICE car.

[Tagbert]

There is that, but in a plug-in hybrid, the gas engine does not get used a lot. When it does, it is usually operating in a serial hybrid mode and runs within an optimal range without much stress. Actual wear and tear and maintenance are much less than in a conventional ICEV. You see this with Priuses and Volts. The gas engines live an unstressed life and last much longer. The Volt keeps track of usage and alerts you when it is time for an oil change. They can easily go 18 months between oil changes.

[tempestn]

That's fair, but still a big difference psychologically between 18m and never. Plus various other fluids. Even brake pads and rotors—on pure EVs they basically last forever thanks to regenerative braking. Perhaps modern hybrids do have that benefit as well now though.

[gambiting]

>>on pure EVs they basically last forever thanks to regenerative braking. Perhaps modern hybrids do have that benefit as well now though.

They do. I have owned an XC60 PHEV for over 2 years now, after 20kk miles the brake pads were 5% worn. And it's a 2.2 tonne, 400bhp SUV. Without regenerative braking the pads would be almost gone now.

[saalweachter]

I mean, you take your car in to the shop once a year for its inspection, they take care of it all for you. The only difference with the BEV is they don't charge you $X0 for the oil change.

[ericd]

The recommended frequency for Tesla appears to be every two years, check brake fluids and replace cabin air filter. Lots of Tesla owners don’t bother outside of tire changes.

[rad_gruchalski]

> you do away with much of the regular maintenance of an ICE car

Which is what on a modern car?it’s an oil change every 25k km on any new bmw.

[YZF]

I'm sure there's a long list of "inspect" to go with that? At some point timing belt? Other belts? Spark plugs? One day the alternator will die, then the water pump, head gasket, exhaust pipe will rust, the battery, starter motor, brake pads, break disks? Oxygen sensor... man the list of stuff in ICE cars that's not in EVs that can and definitely will fail just goes on and on and on. Sure, most of it past the 10 year mark, but it's a lot of stuff.

Is this North America spec btw? (there's difference in maintenance intervals usually).

I've driven ICE for many many many years and I never want to go back. I don't want to smell gasoline in the gas station... The model 3's maintenance is basically cabin air filter and brake fluid which honestly you can just not touch for 5 years with no problem if you live somewhere with clean air ;) it's essentially zero maintenance.

[tempestn]

That's exactly my feeling. I still like the ICE for a fun weekend car (not that the Model 3 isn't fun, but something lightweight with some character is nice for variety), but for anything I'm putting a lot of miles on, not having to worry about all that is fantastic.

[seneca]

The biggest concern I've heard for hybrids is lifetime maintenance cost. You have both the legacy ICE and transmission, as well as electrical components to maintain. That's a major hypothetical disadvantage to all electric.

Does anyone have numbers for this?

[twblalock]

Toyota Priuses have been sold for over 20 years (closer to 25 actually!) and they are very reliable. There are Prius taxis with half a million miles on the original battery.

[jointpdf]

This is a great site for long-term reliability data on many cars: http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_Prius.html. The Prius has the highest reliability score of any compact in their list.

This explains where the data and scores come from: http://www.dashboard-light.com/click-here-first/