[wickedchicken]

I really hope that we can finally end the tyranny of Javascript and allow programmer freedom. This is why PNaCl is so exciting -- just send LLVM bytecode which can be executed more directly and efficiently. You can choose whatever language you'd like! Imagine if every server (every. server.) had to run PHP on the backend and Java, Ruby, OCaml, even C just compiled to PHP. You would go insane. We don't have that situation on servers, but we have it on browsers.

It would not be so bad if the underlying language was more direct -- after all, we mostly run on the x86 ABI which is also insane, but much less so. I don't use Javascript that much, but it appears to be a hacked-up version of Self that you need to include weird modules to do anything with?

[voidfiles]

Whoa, JavaScript is so much better then PHP.

[wickedchicken]

From what I understand, working in Javascript is by default a terrible situation, and you have to go out of your way to do anything good (hence the plethora of structural frameworks). This is why you never see a book like "C: the good parts" or "Ruby: the good parts." And from my limited knowledge of it, the good parts of Javascript are Self (or, I guess, Coffeescript).

It's like people living near Albany NY who are "so close to Boston, NYC, and Montreal!" Yeah you may be close to "there," but you aren't there. I can assure you the people living in Boston, NYC and Montreal are never excited to visit Albany.

[Karellen]

Working with the Javascript HTML DOM API is a terrible situation, and you have to go out of your way to work around that brokenness to do anything good with the DOM.

Javascript the language, and most libraries/APIs written for Javascript using Javascript idioms, are very pleasant.

[showell30]

I 100% agree that the DOM API is a terrible situation. I don't agree that JS is pleasant. When you run a marathon, your legs ache, and that's the DOM API (and all the other concerns of web programming). JS is the little blister on your foot. It hurts too. CS is the vaseline on that little blister. Sure, you still have to run the marathon, and it's gonna suck. But at least the blister is no longer a problem, so you can focus on the bigger issues.

[voidfiles]

First off, the premise that because the language has frameworks means that it's bad language is false. Ruby has rails, C has the standard library. You don't rewrite everything from the ground up every time you make a program.

Second, there are a lot of frameworks for so many reasons. One big reason is the each browser has a slightly different DOM implementation. Frameworks just smooth over the differences.

[gambler]

PHP is an ugly language, but its issues are way more manageable. The worst PHP code I worked with was easier to understand and debug than an average JQuery plugin I've worked with.