[palmetieri2000]

The logic of "The US is the greatest if you likes X things and bad if you prefer Y" is poor because it can be applied to anything. Colombia during Pablo Escobar's time was probably considered pretty great if you were a Narco Trafficker.

The article entirely misses the problem non-US people have with the US faffing on about greatness or its exceptionality.

Which is that individuals from the US seem to see this as an indication of their own superiority and develop a parochial point of view regardless of their almost total insignificance to the accomplishments of the US.

Most US citizens have done precisely nothing to increase the 'greatness' of the US other than pay their taxes (which they oppose doing). Many non-US citizens have done much more, the success of the USA is the result of a combined effort from many countries but the parochialism of many Americans refuses to acknowledge this.

Even if your country is exceptional, which is immeasurable nonsense (I'm sure every country is exceptional in some ways), you should not take pride from this because you have done incredibly little to achieve it.

I expect precisely 0 Americans to agree with me, but my PoV is not uncommon in Australia at least.

[betwixthewires]

In a collective endeavor, which the administration of a state undoubtedly is, especially in a democratically structured system, each individual of course contributes negligibly on average. It is the aggregate of their activities that we end up looking at when we make these determinations. And of course some people pull more weight than others, and a few disproportionately so. But we all play our part, however small.

[palmetieri2000]

I agree with you entirely, my point is that in the rest of the world many people would not feel comfortable using that contribution to justify a parochial perspective or ignorance of the rest of the world.

[starkd]

A lot of that is just patriotism, which is perfectly necessary for any country that hopes to thrive. But it's not just a matter of paying your taxes, as the government is a very different entity than the country itself, though they do overlap to various extents.

[palmetieri2000]

I entirely disagree with the perspective that patriotism is necessary for a country to thrive. There may be some argument that it is beneficial but I would like to see evidence of its necessity.

[starkd]

Then what you are thinking of is not so much a country but an economy.

[stjohnswarts]

Nice job compartmentalizing 330 million Americans into your tiny box. Contrast how awesome Australia is to America and I think you'll see similar amounts of faults as you portray Australians as model citizens of the world and Australia as peak civilization.

[palmetieri2000]

Australia has many flaws, some of them quite significant.

Note that I never say a single thing about Australia being perfect or model citizens, that is your fabrication which you interpreted as 'US Bad and Parochial, Australia Good". Very zero sum of you, which fits exactly into the type of personality I am talking about. Find as many flaws in Australia as you can, it wont offend me because unlike you I dont see my country as beyond reproach.

I did not invent American Exceptionalism, I did not write the article we are discussing, Americans are the ones who refer to their country as the best or greatest.

[cat_plus_plus]

US citizens contribute to US greatness by continuing to accept values such as free speech, free market, personal responsibility and limited government. Which in turns drives economic and cultural innovation and provides sufficient tax revenue to pay for defense of other countries that would otherwise be taken over. Many Australian citizens would not have accepted higher risk from COVID in exchange for greater personal freedom for example. Yet without great freedom, great innovation like Silicon Valley is impossible

[palmetieri2000]

>Yet without great freedom, great innovation like Silicon Valley is impossible

Nah, I disagree. First, individuals who were educated across the globe, money from across the globe, and access to global resources are all necessary (and a fundamental part of the history) of Silicon Valley's success.

There really is no argument that Silicon Valley-like innovation do occur in distinctly non-free environments. For example; The Soviet Union's part in the Space Race, the current entrepreneurial and technological development in China, the British component of the Industrial Revolution.

Each of these demonstrate scientific innovation in otherwise less-free societies than California. I'm sure there are many more examples if you wanted to extend the historic timeline further.

Not an endorsement of the CCP.

[cat_plus_plus]

What are actual major technological innovations coming from China as opposed to making stuff invented in the West cheaper? They would have sent Steve Jobs to a reeducation camp before he had any impact. Sure there are smart people everywhere, but by and large they can only realize their potential by coming to a free country. Military driven pursuits like space race are about the only exception when totalitarian states allow individual creativity out of necessity. Civilian applications like climate studies, GPS and satellite phone/TV are all Western and SpaceX runs circles around government programs.

[palmetieri2000]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Chin...

Feel free to explore that and I'm certain you can dig up plenty more examples of fields in which Chinese scientists have worked on or released significant projects.

I'm not going to get into an argument about the value of the innovations China has produced, although 'making stuff invented in the West cheaper' is hardly a disqualifier for counting as innovation. Many US companies only claim to fame is doing the same thing, innovating a process to provide something that was once expensive at a lower cost.

Further, (and once again, I am not in any way pro-China) it is incredibly misguided and the perfect example of my point about US parochialism to dismiss Chinese innovation because you don't think it 'counts' compared to Western innovation.

And lastly, we haven't even explored any of the less extreme examples. Many of the countries in the EU have less of what people in the US identify as makes them 'free' yet it would be simply nonsensical to say that they have not contributed to global modernization through science and innovation.

[cat_plus_plus]

Well, what is it that you can point at around you and go "this would never have been possible without Chinese innovation"? Or French innovation for that matter, talking about recent stuff not centuries old cuisine? France has been making wine way longer than Napa, but California (while by no means a libertarian paradise) has lighter regulation on both wines themselves and labor to produce them. These days Californian wines routinely beat French ones in blind tasting tests.

Germany, Japan and South Korea come to mind for important technological advances and Bollywood in India for prodigious high quality artistic output. So US is not everything, but it's part of a pretty small club of hyper innovative countries. What has come out of Russia (country where I was born and raised) recently except bad news? You could get a good education and study science, but visionaries like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk would have been smacked down before they could make an impact. They actually had a project that bred foxes into friendly pets to rival cats and dogs. But, good luck getting one in your house.

[palmetieri2000]

> point at and go "this would never have been possible without Chinese innovation"?

Well first I linked you a whole wikipedia page full of them. Second, I would never ask that question because it is nonsense and any answer given can only be because of confirmation bias. Just because something WAS invented in the US does not mean it could have only been invented under those exact circumstances.

"Recently" is an arbitrary term you are throwing in there to be able to define the timeframe that suits you. If you really believe that the only things Russia has ever produced is "bad news" I think you could really get a lot out of exploring Russian art, literature, design, architecture and technology from any period you like between say 1900-present and I'm certain you will find something innovative.