[dementik]

I think this does not look totally bad. I have lots of good experiences on similar digital ID from Estonia. That just works. Banks etc rely there on government-backed authentication.

In Finland its totally opposite. We have 10 or so banks, which all have their own authentication methods and government has outsourced authentication to banks. And every authentication costs 0,10€ (it was previously much higher amount, something like 0,70€ but it is now [since 2017] limited by law).

So, I think at least in Finland banks will be the ones who will come up with several reasons why they should not implement this new authentication method.

[verisimi]

> I think this does not look totally bad.

Phew! But it's not something you wanted, right? This is not something that helps.

It is something that helps those doing the governing though. Tracking you. Why is it planned that we all have these sorts of id/wallet/health pass/etc?

Is it possible that it will be used as in China, with good citizens (uncritical of the government) allowed access to travel, borrowing, schools, etc nevermind the loss of privacy as each purchase, movement is tracked?

To me its plainly about control. Control like we cannot even conceive of. Even if the government is not rule by the worst (and the EU is not a democracy - there's no options to get people out) the change in society will change us. If we know we are always under close scrutiny, you will change your behaviour.

After all we have seen, I hope we are in agreement that this sort of gadget should be roundly refused.

[dementik]

> But it's not something you wanted, right?

I am actually not sure if I wanted this. I think this is better than current (specifically comparing to Finnish) state, but still far from optimal (mainly based on privacy concerns).

> Is it possible that [..] is tracked?

Yes. But I have The Great Belief that EU is _still_ one of the Goods. That may or may not last.

Still, it is very easy to exaggregate this (slippery slope) and at the same time it is too easy to understate this. Probably we - as citizens - should raise loudly these concerns and if we are not heard - then roundly refuse.

[verisimi]

> Yes. But I have The Great Belief that EU is _still_ one of the Goods. That may or may not last.

Still eh? What happens when that belief has waned? The infrastructure will still be there.

[dementik]

> What happens when that belief has waned?

Hard to predict but usually (lost) belief transforms to feelings/actions like resistance. And probably on that point there will be also others who will do the same.

[verisimi]

How would you resist, when your energy, travel, money, internet, etc, is micromanaged by your government?

[dementik]

The same way I am resisting (in-efficiently) things now in democracy: by voting and trying to raise my concerns on public forums.

Yes, government could do things which prevent me doing so. Still, I am not capable to manage everything by myself and at the same time I think it is better to let things to be managed by (good) government than corporations.

[proc0]

> competition is what drives societies to become more complex, building more hierarchical armies to fight ever-more-complex wars and organizing increasingly bureaucratic governments to manage diverse resources and growing populations.

This sounds interesting. Having identification be a cost would make people think before engaging with anything that requires it, which would encourage companies to avoid. Also, if people can choose freely which banks to use, then there is also some market pressure on banks to have good privacy and security.