[bretthoerner]

> As opposed to "Oh you got a CS degree", well programmers get to sit in this cubicle and get paid $50k until we outsource the whole thing to India.

If you're making $50k you're being screwed.

Also, a small percent of people (business students, poetry majors) ever go down the VP track. As a CS major I'm much, much better off in pay, quality of life, career stability than my friends who got business degrees. Never mind liberal arts, liberal arts is a vacation you take before you actually go to (graduate) school.

[gaustin]

> If you're making $50k you're being screwed.

I'm being screwed then. I have a CS degree and a business Masters degree. I'm a "senior" developer and make $55k.

The primary employer in my area is the Montana State government. Programmer pay here tops out at about $60k/year. Low-end programmer salaries are about $35-$40k. In the private sector you'd be lucky to get $70k/year.

My wife and I are thinking about moving, but you can't really beat the quality of life here. Remote work is an option, but I don't really have the network/stomach to freelance and remote permanent positions are pretty scarce.

[learc83]

Ok if you lived in a major metropolitan area you'd be getting screwed.

Cost of living is cheaper in rural areas, and there are fewer tech companies. But the vast majority of CS graduates live and work in metropolitan areas, so for the vast majority of CS graduates $50k is getting screwed.

[bretthoerner]

You're right, cost of living matters. I think it's safe to say that 50k in most metros (even ignoring the coasts) is a pretty bad deal, though.

[gyardley]

$50K in Missoula is probably $80K in San Francisco and $100K in NYC, and that's without taking discrepancies in federal, state, local, and sales taxes into account.

A senior developer in SF or NYC is still coming out ahead - probably due to the sheer amount of competition for them - but not quite as much as you'd think at first glance.

[gaustin]

The biggest difference to my mind, the one that bugs me most, is the opportunity cost. Sure, I have no commute, low mortgage for a big house, no sales tax and easy access to some of the most beautiful unspoiled wilderness in the entire world. The downside is that there are virtually no jobs/startups here that I find interesting.

You either adjust your expectations when you live here, or you go somewhere else.

I am somewhat worried that when I do decide to leave that my wages will be pegged artificially low because of the cost of living difference. But I figure I can always convert my salary to the local equivalent when asked what my current salary is.

[jessedhillon]

What about lying or simply not answering?

Why would an interviewer have a right to know your current salary? That person is tasked with acquiring your intellectual resources at the lowest price possible. And by giving them your current salary, you're clearing up a big unknown in their equation -- your current alternative to a negotiated agreement.

When you go and buy a car, the sales people don't generally offer to tell you the car's invoice price, do they?

[pnathan]

> But I figure I can always convert my salary to the local equivalent when asked what my current salary is.

Same. I make in your salary range, and I figure I will simply grab some COLA calculators when I go job hunting and adjust upwards to correct for the local difference

[TheCapn]

Agreed. My area's companies typically offer $50k for entry level developers. You can swindle more out of companies if they've been looking for someone for long enough or you have a special skillset that interests them.

I have one friend who got $75k off the bat but that was a job in a company that employs 4 programmers for the entire company (national) and is energy industry related.

[mahyarm]

Move, work in the bay area, get that network and then move back. If you have a house in Montana, and family there, rent it out and get your family to help you manage it. Even if you have to pay $2000/month more in rent, which you won't, you'll still come out ahead. And you'll have better weather and cheaper airfare than Montana.

[gaustin]

This is an avenue I'm investigating.

Just trying to find the right place to go. Right now I'm doing a software craftsman apprenticeship to increase the quality of place I can get a job. When that's done (it's a 20-30 hour commitment on top of a full-time+ job) in January, I'm going to get involved in some OSS projects.

The move is probably at least 6-12 months out.

[mseebach]

It sounds alot to me like you're having confidence issues. By all means, get involved with OSS, but do it for love, not to beef up your CV. If you have no code to your name, stick your SC exercises on GitHub and start applying. There was a hiring thread here yesterday with at least a hundred jobs across the US. Opportunity is ripe.

Worst case scenario if you do? You won't get anything good.

Worst case scenario if you don't? You'll have spent a year trying more or less random things and then still not getting anything.

[gaustin]

This is probably not something I should talk too much about on a venue filled with potential employers or coworkers. But I think self-awareness is important, so I'll say a few things.

You're right on with the confidence (and persistence?) issues. That's one reason for doing the SC thing. It's helping me build up some confidence. I've been programming for quite a number of years. My day jobs for the last several years have destroyed the confidence I used to have. I'm getting it back, and quickly. And that makes me very, very happy.

OSS is something I want to be a core part of my job, because I use and appreciate it so much. I've tried getting involved with several projects before. Invariably my confidence falters enough that I give up before I really get going.

I'll go over to the two jobs threads from the other day and apply to some places. There were at least 3 or 4 that I would LOVE to work at.

[mseebach]

> This is probably not something I should talk too much about on a venue filled with potential employers or coworkers.

Having concerns about your abilities and taking steps to improve them is a very positive trait.

> OSS is something I want to be a core part of my job, because I use and appreciate it so much.

I'll challenge you to find a single job on those hiring threads where you won't be steeping neck-high in open source software. Whether you'll get to contribute back is a different issue, but if nothing else you'll gain loads of exposure that you can use to contribute on your own time.

> I'll go over to the two jobs threads from the other day and apply to some places. There were at least 3 or 4 that I would LOVE to work at.

Awesome! Good luck!

[lukatmyshu]

Have you read the who is hiring thread? More and more companies are okay with remote workers. Anecdotally I hired a guy recently who is remote. I don't want to comment on his salary ... but i wouldn't be typing this if it were less.

[BadassFractal]

Agreed. If you graduated in CS from a top 5 school you can easily make 90k in Seattle straight out of school, likely even more in the Bay Area.