[ryanklee]

University is not trade school. There is more function there than simply learning to do the narrow job one believes the future may have in store for them. Here are some others:

  - Obtain fodder for sufficient individuation
  - Find sexual mates
  - Find platonic mates
  - Learn many disconnected things
  - Learn many connected things
  - Learn to take criticism in the open
  - Learn to render criticism in the open
  - Engage diversity
  - Engage similarity
  - Discover the value of value
  - Make mistakes in the open... recover
  - Watch others make mistakes in the open... help them recover
  - Learn to how to think
  - Learn the history of thinking
  - Become a robust citizen of the universe
  - Learn you are much smaller than you thought you were

[AnimalMuppet]

A "liberal education" was, originally, an education appropriate to free people, as opposed to slaves. Slaves got an education that was more like trade school, if at all. Free people got an education for those who didn't have to work for a living. If you're getting that education today, it has value, but you'd better be in a position where you don't need it to get you a job when you're done.

On the other hand:

> Obtain fodder for sufficient individuation

One of the things you don't learn in college: Not to talk like that.

[ryanklee]

> One of the things you don't learn in college: Not to talk like that.

Totally uncivil comment.

[AnimalMuppet]

Fair. I stated it badly, which made it look like a personal attack. So let me try again:

In most environments, that kind of writing comes across as pretentious, and even as deliberately obscure. But for at least some people, in college they learn to write that way, because it gives them better grades. But they would in fact communicate better if they didn't write that way, and college in general would be better if they taught people how to write for a general audience, instead of for professors.

Now you in particular, just that one sentence struck me that way. Your writing in general didn't come across that way, and my comment should not be taken as a personal attack. That one sentence, though, I feel merits criticism.

[ryanklee]

In a different context or some other format, I would not have been so brief. But the point of the list was simply to rattle off indications of ideas, not to communicate concepts with reliable clarity.

Further, what's pretentious to one audience is idiomatic to another. HN has a diverse crowd with many backgrounds. Implying that your own taste in this matter is representative is a bit much.

Edit: I'll admit I'm feeling a little sensitive at the moment. I've had a bad week. If I'm being a bit defensive here, I apologize. I do essentially agree with your judgment re that particular bullet -- I might have landed on better words.

[AnimalMuppet]

Hey, I've never done that. Never been over sensitive on HN. Never snapped at anyone because I was having a bad week. Never... um, or maybe not this week... um... (checks time of my initial post in this thread) this afternoon?

We've all been there. May your week improve.

[andreilys]

You don’t need to go to college to do any of that.

The same can be accomplished with a year of travel and a year of internships/apprenticeships.

Also I think at this point it’s safe to say that a college environment does not in any way shape or form engage diversify. It tends to be a monolithic culture that is hostile to contrarian views that may disrupt may d disrupt the status quo.

[_8j50]

Military service does much more in those social areas than college. Intermixing with others and learning how to get along and communicate are not optional there -- as unpopular as that may be.

[y-c-o-m-b]

You can do all of those things outside of University though. I think you actually made a very valid argument against your point.

University is beneficial for access to laboratory infrastructure that you otherwise couldn't obtain on your own without incurring significant cost. A good - albeit extreme - example is the nuclear reactor at Reed College. University also provides you with resources to ask questions on observations or thoughts around what you experiment with in the lab. It's a great sandbox and gives you flexibility to determine what you want to do in life before you fully invest into it. This is only true to the extent in which you're not pouring thousands of dollars down the drain at college to learn you just wanted to weld shit together. Conversely I think trade school is where you've discovered what you want to do and you go learn how to do it with peak proficiency in a controlled setting.

[_8j50]

I am glad you like those things but for most people an undergrad degree is a piece of paper and a line on the resume. If it does not help me with my job and future income it should not be mandatory for employers to require it. I have no problem with degrees not required by employers. If you apply at a tech company and get rejected because of lack of undergrad degree then are you saying becoming "a robust citizen of the universe" and finding sexual mates was why?

[BeetleB]

> If it does not help me with my job and future income it should not be mandatory for employers to require it.

And you've pinpointed the problem - it's not with universities but with employers.

[_8j50]

It's both I think. I can understand employers wanting employees to know more than leetcode for example. English/writing would help having good documentation for example. The current undergrad regime is too broad is my argument. I am not a coder but in my field undergrads are not very well prepared to enter the workforce.