[erlich]

„Having a say“ = making demands / threats when you are unionized.

Employees already have a say.

Startups trying to survive don’t need the distraction and overhead of unions. What is the point of ideal conditions if the company won’t exist.

[slively]

Employees do not have a say, that’s the discussion. It seems like you are arguing that a startup has to have worse working conditions for employees than other companies.

[erlich]

> Worse conditions

Yes I am saying that. They need more flexibility. Imagine a startup that cannot make employees work longer than 8 hours a day. It’s just detached from reality.

There are benefits that come from being early stage startup employee. More ownership, equity, etc.

Employees can chose if they want that and if they don’t.

My measure is if someone else wants to do your job for less pay with same conditions then they should have a chance at that job. Existing employees shouldn’t gate keep by inflating their wages and conditions.

Unions only seem to care about existing employees to the exclusion of those who are looking for work and would work for less pay or conditions.

[slively]

Lots of union and coop workers work more than 8 hours a day.

I think you mis-understand that unions and coops are about employees having a say. If the employees want to work more for less in exchange for equity they can. All unions are not the same, because the union is the workers.

You say working at a startup should be worse, but really it’s trading things. You get to learn and experience more. More equity instead of higher wages, and greater access to leadership. I work at one right now, I get it. I think this is what your saying, and workers know this. A union does not preclude this arrangement. Also the people that are willing to work at a startup tend to be more invested and want more of a say in the company. If the company succeeds I argue they deserve a seat at the table as they built it along with the founders more than any investor.

So many comments in this post setup imaginary straw men for what a union would do, then argue against that. The union is the employees, and employees at startups are not trying to kill a company and gate keep jobs.