[bambax]

I did a couple of 2000+ km tours in Europe on a... motorcycle. It's not sports, it has a big carbon footprint and gas can be expensive, but you can experience some of the same benefits: take less traveled roads, stop anywhere, meet people.

I ride a bike every day but only on short distances; on a tour I would be afraid of not being able to pack enough things (clothes, shoes...) But it's a neat idea.

[Cockbrand]

> on a tour I would be afraid of not being able to pack enough things

You can always start small with a weekend trip and see which of the items you packed you actually needed, and you'll find out which items you forgot to pack. If you take good note of these, you'll be a proficient and efficient packer very soon, and you'll go on trips that last for days or weeks with the exact amount of stuff you need. And at least in Europe, the next supermarket is never so far away that you can' t reach it on the next day in case you did forget something essential.

[jacquesm]

And the big one - for me - it's noisy! Bikes are utterly silent so you don't spook wildlife and the locals tend to be a lot more friendly than if you disturb their neighborhood with your motorbike.

[Lio]

Yeah there’s not much more magical than going round a bend on the bike and coming face to face with a stag.

He looked at me and I looked at him, didn’t seem spooked at all.

Being able to ride the quietest country roads regularly makes me really happy that I don’t live in a city.

[jacquesm]

A few weeks ago I almost tripped over a fairly massive wild boar, dusk at the Hoge Veluwe. Super impressive up close (and the most dangerous animal in Europe right now). Fortunately I have very good brakes :)

[Lio]

I think I'd have needed a new chamois if I'd have seen one of them up close... :P

[jacquesm]

It was over so fast that I didn't have time to get scared. There are quite a few of them in that area (~50) and I know it well so I'm somewhat prepared but normally you see them coming from some distance away, this one (a pretty beefy male) just sauntered out from between a bunch of trees very close to the bike trail.

[robin_reala]

I’ve got a bike with a belt drive and that’s freakishly quiet. Would recommend if you’re optimising for peace.

[jacquesm]

I really like the belt drives but I don't like the required split in the frame.

[deebosong]

I don't ride mopeds/ scooters/ motorcycles. I've done a couple of cross country road trips. I do cycle pretty much every day for fitness, fun, and challenging myself.

But just like you did, I kinda feel like cross country road trips would be excellent on back roads via motorcycles. In a car, it's a bit disconnected and insulated. On a bike, it just seems way too slow and tiresome.

Only things I'd want in a cross country motorcycle is: a machine that's under 50 pounds, has a max speed of 50 mph (I'd prefer to keep it at 20-30 mph), goes 300 miles per gallon, and costs under $3000. SO I GUESS I WON'T BE TAKING THAT CROSS COUNTRY MOTORCYCLE TRIP EVER THEN.

[bambax]

You're describing my first moped: https://www.mobylette-mag.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/cara...

They don't make those anymore, but they were incredibly fun to ride (and at the time, it cost 6000FF new, which translates to maybe €1000-1500 today).

[JKCalhoun]

Yeah, Honda Trail 150. But, of course, it's over 50 pounds and new over $3K.

[newaccount74]

I did both, and I think motorcycle tours and bicycle tours are very different.

On a bicycle, you'll be a lot closer to nature. A lot of paths I use are closed to motor traffic and you can't ride with a motorcycle.

On the motorcycle, you can cover more ground and see a lot more different places in the same time. Also, cars don't feel as dangerous, so you can ride roads with lots of car traffic that I wouldn't ride on a bicycle.

[randomluck040]

Also you can hit the twisties with the motorcycle :) I think both are very different as well for the reasons you have mentioned. I think it depends a lot on where you want to go in what amount of time. On a weekend on the motorcycle you can travel to another country in Europe, on bike it wouldn’t be possible for me because the border is too far away. I believe it’s two different philosophies, for me the motorcycle is the middleground between car and bicycle. Depending on the motorcycle you have a different kind of freedom compared to a car.

[SirZimzim]

It's still too fast for you to really take things in.

[thoms_a]

Came here to say this. Bicycling is absolute madness to me in any location that doesn't have dedicated separate bike paths. You are maximizing all possible sources of risk by riding a bicycle on shared roads.

I've ridden motorcycles since I was 16, and everyone always sees me as the daredevil. Yet, I still think bicycle commuters are the true madmen. Zero protection, can't keep up with traffic, your very presence is a psychological irritant to motorists which causes them to wish you harm, etc.

But don't take my word for it: https://youtu.be/wM8Xli2KTzI

My only advice to cyclists: put your bike on your car's bike rack, take to a bike path and enjoy. If you want to get on a road on two wheels, buy a motorcycle and wear every piece of protective gear you can afford. You (and your family) can thank me later.

[wpietri]

That seems like a lot of advice from somebody who has apparently never tried it.

If you did, one of the things you'd learn is the extent to which serious cyclists minimize the risks, from route choice to gear to behavior. E.g., the first bike tour I did was about 150 miles. I found a mailing list of local riders and people were happy to discuss my route and how to handle safety issues.

In any case, you're wrong on the facts. Motorcyling is more dangerous. Deaths per 100m miles traveled is circa 25 for motorcyclists [1], while it's between 4 and 13 for people on bicycles [2]. Given that recommended touring distances for motorcyclists seem to be around 300 miles per day versus 50 for bicycles, bike touring is going to be much safer. Which only makes sense; if I'm riding at 10 mph vs 50 on a motorcycle, that's 25 times the kinetic energy that needs to get dissipated if something goes wrong.

[1] https://www.motorcyclelegalfoundation.com/motorcycle-acciden... [2] https://bicycleuniverse.com/bicycle-safety-almanac/

[wolverine876]

> one of the things you'd learn is the extent to which serious cyclists minimize the risks

At a social event which happened to include many members of the local bicycle club, I observed: Almost everyone I know who bicycles regularly has been hospitalized due to a bicycle-car accident. Is that true? Yes, they all agreed, that's about right.

IME, they don't minimize risks well. There's no safe way to ride in traffic unless it's moving near bicycle-speed. However, there are side streets, etc., so that risk could be minimized if they wanted to do it; you can cut exposure to cars by 90% easily.

[dsizzle]

Source #2 indicates that "wrong-way" biking is more dangerous, but my intuition is that it's safer: I like being able to see the traffic that is closest to me. I guess whatever advantage that provides is more than offset by the accident being head-on, and having less time for the driver to react (and maybe there's an expectation aspect too).

[wolverine876]

AFAIK: The most important safety factor is being seen by the automobile drivers, and a disproportionate number of accidents happen at intersections and turns, including driveways. The drivers in those situations have a large cognitive load; they are looking for cars, not bicycles, and will look where they expect traffic to come from. You want to be where they are looking.

Next time you drive a car, notice where you look. Consider where a bicycle would have to be in order to noticed if you are in a hurry, distracted, trying to figure out where you are or where to go, not expecting them, etc.

[eCa]

Think relative speed. Even a bike touring cyclist will regularly travel at speeds around 40 kph (25 mph). If you then have cars travelling at 80 kph (50 mph).

Also, you learn hearing the difference in sound a car makes as it moves over to give room.

In short, I’d wager that < 0.5% of all people that have done any sort of serious biking would prefer to ride against traffic.

[dsizzle]

Per the reference in the article above (http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/riskfactors.htm) 8% of bicyclists were going against traffic.

Yeah relative speed goes hand-in-hand with head-on collision and less reaction time and expectation that I mentioned. I do bike a fair amount, but not on major roads. I am coming to realize that going with traffic is safer, despite it being hard to see cars coming from behind you. I also didn't realize that it's illegal in most places to bike against traffic https://roadbikebasics.com/ride-with-or-against-traffic/

[snovv_crash]

You can get mirrors on your handlebars or helmet if you lack situational awareness. I did this for my bike and it's a huge help, the Spintech drop bar mirrors are sleek and unobtrusive.

[seoaeu]

The problem is drivers seeing you. If you are in a serious crash it is probably going to be because they hit you, not from you hitting them. Motorists look for other road users they may be overtaking, but usually don’t expect to see oncoming traffic in their lane

[ervine]

I don't have a car. Cyclists don't need your advice, we know it's increasing our risk to ride around idiot drivers.

Let's change the rhetoric from "cycling is dangerous" to "driving a car is a serious responsibility".

[cycomanic]

> Came here to say this. Bicycling is absolute madness to me in any location that doesn't have dedicated separate bike paths. You are maximizing all possible sources of risk by riding a bicycle on shared roads.

> I've ridden motorcycles since I was 16, and everyone always sees me as the daredevil. Yet, I still think bicycle commuters are the true madmen. Zero protection, can't keep up with traffic, your very presence is a psychological irritant to motorists which causes them to wish you harm, etc.

> But don't take my word for it: https://youtu.be/wM8Xli2KTzI

Whatever one might think about the general premise, but this video is absolute rubbish. All the little example videos he puts in is of people riding on crazy tuned e-bikes or downhill bikes etc.. On the other hand the few instances of motorcycling videos show him just riding along in traffic, a bit disingenuous.

> My only advice to cyclists: put your bike on your car's bike rack, take to a bike path and enjoy. If you want to get on a road on two wheels, buy a motorcycle and wear every piece of protective gear you can afford. You (and your family) can thank me later.

Considering that the article points to bike paths off general roads your post is a bit redundant.

I would still question your premise. You ride a motorbike beside the fact that motorcycle deaths and serious injuries outstrip cycling ones by quite a margin (it's right there in the video you posted). So I guess safety is not your main priority. Moreover, if we consider overall health benefits you will live longer if you commute by bike, so if health is your priority you should absolute bike.

[Matthias247]

The comment more sums up what is wrong with current society than with biking: people in 2T metal boxes feel entitled to own the road, plus get totally stressed out if they see anything that prevents them from doing it and perform risky maneuvers.

The answer to that problem should not be pushing weaker participants off the road.

[contingencies]

The Highway and Automobile culture are symbols of totalitarian cultures which deny people more sustainable and equitable alternatives for mobility and transport. - Vandana Shiva (2004)

[seadan83]

The perception from driving is not true to reality. For example, most busy roadw are completely empty about 70 to 95% of the time. To explain, off-peak, most roads are just quiet. Further, there are a lot of roads, plenty of ways to go from a connector to something less used (arguably too many roads). Then, most traffic are in convoys created by stop lights. This I wan tg to emphasize, the person in a convoy with 2 cars on each side of them feel like they are on a congested street. They do not realize they are the first cars for 3 minutes on that specific vacant stretch of road, and they will leave that stretch of road vacant moments later. There are lots more examples of how it really is a different experience compared to what people think it would be from just looking out a car window.

[seadan83]

On the same hacker news page as this article, is this one: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-16/why-franc...

Seemingly, car traffic is just straight up dangerous in the US (to everyone). It's normalized how dangerous car traffic is, there are plenty of car crashes every day that kill and maim, yet we feel so comfortable driving we hardly pay diligent attention and have very absurdly low standards for who can get and keep a drivers license.