[random-human]

>> Can that hunting rifle be an AR-15? No. Military assault rifles are not needed for hunting. You can use a bolt action rifle, or even a low powered semi-auto, .22.

I very much agree with with the paragraph before this one. However. This one is why many people just stop listening. The one's you are trying to persuade are gun owners, and this reads as though you did a quick google search for hunting guns and maybe shot a gun once at a range. (not saying thats how it is)

I'll try to unpack this. The statement is conflating looks, cartridge action/mechanism (bolt-action), semi-auto describes the bullet firing mechanism (the gun only fires one round per trigger pull - fully auto will continue to fire as long as the trigger is depressed), and caliber (.22) which is different from cartridge (ex .22LR)

Military assault rifles != AR-15 (I believe many people are confusing what a gun looks like and what it actually does)

> The U.S. Army defines assault rifles as "short, compact, selective-fire weapons that fire a cartridge intermediate in power between submachine gun and rifle cartridges." [1]

Bolt-action describes a large range of guns. To be honest, I have always wanted a military sniper rifle, just don't have a use for it, except to maybe look pretty on the wall and target practice. Something like [2]

The .22. I love this gun. It is one of the best guns to learn on. It was the gun I learn to load, shoot, dismantle and clean when I was 4 y/o. It's extremely user friendly. I really hope you don't think a .22 should be used for hunting anything other than rabbits or the like. Anyone that shoots a .22 knows it wont leave big holes, but that you can still kill larger things - if you want to be cruel. The .22 is notorious for bouncing and ricocheting, including off bone and tearing up and shattering the insides. .22s are also easier to fire than larger calibers with a heavier recoil that greatly diminishes accuracy. An untrained shooter with be able to handle a .22 far more accurately, with a greater rate of fire, than the types of "AR-15" guns you are thinking of.

People are scared of large bullet-holes and think AR-15s look like it will leave large holes, so let's ban them. I think many people that actually shoot guns would pick being shot with a gun that quickly blows a large hole through them and it ends there - than by a .22 that will most likely not exit. Instead, it will ricochet shattering bones with the shards ripping through other organs as they slowly, painfully bleed to death from the inside, leaving surgeons helpless to fix that many problems in time.

For completeness, by saying you are okay with a low powered semi-auto .22 (such as a .22 Long Rifle), that is approving of:

American-80 submachine gun [3] Colt M4 .22LR [4]

There are many more AR-15 style gun in .22 caliber

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle#Definition

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_MSR

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-180

[4] https://waltherarmsusa.com/walther-colt-m4-ops-22lr-carbine-...

[beachy]

Appreciate your thoughts and I will try and give my perspective, having been a responsible gun owner/user for many years.

> I'll try to unpack this. The statement is conflating looks, cartridge action/mechanism (bolt-action), semi-auto describes the bullet firing mechanism (the gun only fires one round per trigger pull - fully auto will continue to fire as long as the trigger is depressed), and caliber (.22) which is different from cartridge (ex .22LR) [..]

To stay away from legalistic arguments I agree and appreciate the problems of categorising firearms. I would say the test case is how dangerous is the weapon - can it be used to kill many people very quickly?

An AR-15 in 5.56 is far more dangerous than a .22.

A semi-auto is far more dangerous than a bolt action.

A gun with a magazine of 30 bullets is more dangerous that one with 8.

A semi-auto shotgun is somewhat more dangerous than a pump action which is far more dangerous than an over and under.

A pistol is far more dangerous than a rifle (can be concealed).

Agree these are not simple checkbox decisions, but a framework of danger to the community can be used to identify weapons that should have more restrictions.

> The .22. I love this gun. It is one of the best guns to learn on. It was the gun I learn to load, shoot, dismantle and clean when I was 4 y/o. It's extremely user friendly. I really hope you don't think a .22 should be used for hunting anything other than rabbits or the like.

Agreed, and yes .22 is not suitable for shooting anything too large. Above that you will need the right caliber, e.g. we use .308 often over here for pigs, deer etc. But if you need a semi-auto to hunt deer you are doing something wrong - a bolt action is enough.

> An untrained shooter with be able to handle a .22 far more accurately, with a greater rate of fire, than the types of "AR-15" guns you are thinking of.

It's hard to respond to this, you could be right? But if some deranged individual breaks into my place of work with a gun I personally would much rather they had a .22 than a .308 or 5.56. Overwhelming them with force with 2 or 3 people I feel would be far more feasible even if you take some bullets in the act.

> People are scared of large bullet-holes and think AR-15s look like it will leave large holes, so let's ban them. I think many people that actually shoot guns would pick being shot with a gun that quickly blows a large hole through them and it ends there - than by a .22 that will most likely not exit. Instead, it will ricochet shattering bones with the shards ripping through other organs as they slowly, painfully bleed to death from the inside, leaving surgeons helpless to fix that many problems in time.

I thinks it's uncontroversial that an AR-15 in 5.56 is far more deadly than one in .22.

> For completeness, by saying you are okay with a low powered semi-auto .22 (such as a .22 Long Rifle), that is approving of: American-80 submachine gun [3] Colt M4 .22LR [4]

Yes, that looks a zany and fun little weapon and personally I think it is OK and I would love to shoot one. I don't see any difference between any of the form factors for .22 semi-auto (unless it's very small and allows concealment).

[random-human]

>> But if some deranged individual breaks into my place of work with a gun I personally would much rather they had a .22 than a .308 or 5.56. Overwhelming them with force with 2 or 3 people I feel would be far more feasible even if you take some bullets in the act.

>> I thinks it's uncontroversial that an AR-15 in 5.56 is far more deadly than one in .22.

I am not so sure I would agree. Two reasons; splitting the assertion. One is that many of the people calling for AR-15 bans have no idea that there is a difference in bullet sizes, or if they have an idea that there is, they dont understand what it means and default to - AR-15 == bad.

The other is, I can fire off more round from a 22 rifle and 22 magnum faster with better accuracy than I can an AR-15 style rifle in 5.56 or a .45 (own most of the kinds of guns I talk about). If I slow down on the 5.56 or the 45, I have better accuracy. I have also been shooting for multiple decades, mostly against moving (mostly non-living things) and non-moving objects . Which leads into:

>> I would say the test case is how dangerous is the weapon - can it be used to kill many people very quickly?

Every time I read about these shooters, it is absolutely baffling me that they hit so few people. The only thing that makes sense is that they miss a lot - and from experience, I would guess it is because their anger makes them recklessly-wantonly firing off shoots from a gun they can not handle - put a 22 in their hands and I would bet my arsenal that they hit and kill more people. I would even put a 20g shotgun at being a better(worse) weapon than an 5.56 and maybe even tied with a 22 in terms of an untrained shooter hitting and killing their target. But not a 10g or 12g. Of course all of this changes depending on the shooters experience - and then the experienced shooters preference, but any gun in their hands will be more deadly.

I can not see a world where someone who just picked up a real gun will be able to hit more of their moving targets with something that kicks higher than a 22. I would rather take my chances of being a moving target they have trouble hitting over getting a 22 breaking apart inside of me. And if I get hit with a larger slug, I have a better chance of it exiting, cleanly killing me or worst case, being lodged inside but at least staying intact and having a chance to be patched up.

>> But if you need a semi-auto to hunt deer you are doing something wrong - a bolt action is enough.

Just for fun, I prefer the American classic lever-action 30-30. But growing up in the south where cowboy boots and hats are still an everyday thing, not a fashion statement - so I may be biased. Though you wont find me wearing either, I prefer urban areas most of the year and like to blend into the background.

I guess my point is focusing on guns will lead to nowhere, too many varying cases - but focusing on keeping guns away from violent and unstable people is a good place to find common ground. I am a huge advocate of gun safety and gun licenses (registries are another issue, and I don't like them because they can be abused too much for my taste. A licenses does not mean you have a gun, just that you can operate them safely, and I am all for that.) Too many people know nothing about guns for me to be okay with them broadly bans gun types without specifically.