[radarsat1]

I'm frankly super confused about salaries right now. Currently job hunting in Europe and the other day when a recruiter asked how much I was looking for I gave my current salary as a minimum of 65 euros/h and the recruiter kind of chuckled and told me that if I'm a good match I could ask for like 90. Okay, sounds great. So a few days later I was having an initial interview for a senior ML position and when asked how much I expect (recall this is Europe so let's generously divide the US salary by 4) I said 100k. From my point of view I'm still low balling it because I wanted the job, but apparently this was far too much because the interviewer was incredulous and basically ended the interview on the spot. Told me that was more than they pay any of their senior positions.

Doing the rough math, 60 euros/h, 8 hrs per day at 48 weeks > 100k. So yeah. I just don't know what to say any more when this question comes up. It seems to be random to me what is going to be an acceptable answer. Usually I want to continue the conversation and discuss it, but instead it just seems to cut things off immediately.

I find it really frustrating that they make you guess what they are thinking and then either laugh or act like you're some kind of high roller. I mean, I need a job, so like, if you're going to choose me based on my ability to pick a random number you are thinking in your head, how about we do that at the beginning of the interview instead of talking for an hour first and giving me the impression that things are going well?

In any case, just ranting. What's a good rate for a senior SWE or ML engineer in Europe these days? What can I get away with asking for without getting this reaction?

Also, what's up with people asking this question in the first conversation? I feel like in the past you would go through a couple of rounds and then get to discussing what they could offer you but now it seems to be the other way around, and they are not willing to counteroffer if you guess wrong. Maybe just my perception, but I find it weird and difficult. I'm always fine and more or less comfortable in interviews until this question comes up.

[user568439]

I think the recruiter meant 90€ as freelance and you asked 100k as permanent? In Europe de permanent contract includes a lot of benefits and a big risk for the company: holidays, unemployment coverage, sick coverage and normally other things like bonus, pension, phone and sometimes medical insurance and car (consultants).

For the rates I’ve seen first hand, 90€/hour of freelance corresponds to 70-80k hired salary

[Ekaros]

Also decent chunk of difference comes from how freelancers are responsible for their own employer taxes. So the costs that are essentially invisible to someone receiving a wage.

[radarsat1]

your numbers concur pretty well with what another poster replied, so thanks! I'll try to tailor my answers accordingly in the future, really helpful cheers. It just gets so confusing when people post their salaries like in the US and other places and I just don't know what is reasonable to ask for. Learning though, glad for the answers here.

[DeathArrow]

>when people post their salaries like in the US and other places and I just don't know what is reasonable to ask for.

When people are posting US salaries, they are usually quoting the gross amount. In Europe people are usually quoting the net amount because people care what they can spend, not some sum written on the paper.

[radarsat1]

Actually, so far in my experience, this advice has been very misleading. I have been told this before, and it had bad consequences. A while ago I got through multiple interviews for a job (in Europe) that had the salary range pre-posted, and somehow I kept forgetting to check whether the posted salary range was net or gross. I asked some advice from people, and was told that it is always net, so I went with that assumption, only to find out when the job offer was actually on the table that it was gross, and the interviewer made me feel a little stupid for not knowing that, saying "it always means gross salary". I didn't take the offer, as it turned out the salary was lower than I was looking for, but I felt rather guilty for wasting their time and getting their hopes up.

So, I find that net vs. gross is this weird thing where people become convinced that there is some default that is always implied, but different people think the default is different. Don't know how that happened, but in the future I will always be clarifying that as early as possible, otherwise it can be a major source of miscommunication.

[lordgrenville]

Totally agree that it's obnoxious to ask for a number first, but if you're going to do it makes sense to do it at the beginning. In your story, if they were reasonable they would have said, "we actually only pay around x, if that's not acceptable to you then let's not waste each other's time". That way they give you a chance to accept.

[namaria]

In my experience, a value per hour in Europe tends to imply contract/freelance arrangement, where you need to get a VAT number, liability insurance and have basically none of the labor rights regular employees have.

So I think the confusion is due to the fact that the interviewer interpreted as you expecting a full time regular employment contract, which gives you plenty of legal protection. In that case I have seen 45k/yr as typical for jr level developers, while 65k being an average and towards 80k for seniors.

[radarsat1]

really appreciate the numbers, thanks. Indeed 65 is what I said I make as a freelancer, tried to explain that I would have different expectations as an employee but I had no idea what number to say, so this is very helpful. That said I find it crazy how big the difference is on these two conditions and am struggling a bit now to justify why I would want to go back to being an employee. Maybe I'll drop the idea. On the other hand this job would have given me great experience so I wish I had known to give a lower number as a kind of investment. Mainly I was disappointed that saying the wrong thing had such a disastrous effect instead of being a point of discussion so maybe I need to work on how I word things when discussing my expections. I'm learning that interviewing takes practice and preparation. Cheers.

[cactus2093]

It's a learning experience! Don't feel bad, now you've learned a good lesson for future interviews.

> That said I find it crazy how big the difference is on these two conditions and am struggling a bit now to justify why I would want to go back to being an employee

As an American, I gotta say it seems like the benefits of being a full-time employee in Europe only really make sense if you plan on slacking off. It's very difficult to fire you as a full-time employee (at least in France which I am somewhat familiar with). You can skate by for years doing very little work if you want. If you are hard-working and want to deliver high quality work, I think you might be better off staying as a contractor. Or trying to get a job & a visa to come work in the US if you have any opportunities to.

[projektfu]

I did some consulting for a large employer in the UK and found that all of their programmers were contract employees. I asked one guy about it (an American) and he said that he makes so much he can spend 6 months traveling each year. At the time full-time jobs were pretty low-paid in the UK relative to US standards. I wondered if the flexibility the large employer got was worth the approximately 200-300% premium it was paying to hire contractors, although perhaps talented devs wouldn't work for the lower stable wage.

[namaria]

I don't disagree, but you have to consider the fact that we seem to be ending a good two decades boom, and contractors/freelancers will be the first to go. Having a permanent contract here in the Netherlands makes it super expensive to fire someone so the lesser salaries come with a big expectation of continuity in hard times or a nice retroactive adjustment in form of a big severance payout.

[LegitShady]

> So a few days later I was having an initial interview for a senior ML position and when asked how much I expect

Sometimes companies are looking to hire super cheap only and you gave your expectations as higher than they budgeted, so no point interviewing you, but also from your perspective, probably no point in being underpaid.

I'm sure we've all seen job ads where they talk about the mountains of experience and skills you need and then list near poverty wages as restitution, if they list salary range at all.

[ellen364]

Recruitment is bizarre right now. I chat to recruiters sometimes and in the last few months have specifically asked about salaries in the UK. Essentially, “What’s the going rate for a web dev with 5 years experience?” The answers have ranged from “£45k-55k” to “£100k-130k”. The most common response seems to be “£70k-80k”. And everyone who’s answered seemed confident they know “the market rate”. Sometimes people even laugh incredulously if I tell them the ranges given by other people.

Tying in with the original post, what companies pay seems to be as much about the company’s business model and profit margin as it is about the developer.

Thinking about the dreaded “What salary are you looking for?” question, I wonder if it’s worth specifically asking the manager / recruiter about the salary range. E.g. “Other companies I’ve spoken to are offering £n-m. What’s the salary range for this position?”

[DeathArrow]

I get few job proposals per day. If one seems interesting, I am always asking for a salary range first, to not waste time. It worked wonders as I was able to find a good paying position relatively fast, instead of doing countless interviews and find out I don't like the payment. People were receptive in general, I think employers do not like to waste their time either, so talking about salary in the first place is a good thing.

The only company that was reluctant to discuss wages was Microsoft, but I was still able to convince the interviewer to verify that my asking salary was within their range.

[ellen364]

That’s useful to hear, thanks.

[radarsat1]

Not a bad idea, do you think it would come off well in an interview setting to come right out and just get that question out of the way by (politely) beating them to it? Genuinely curious if this could be a good approach.

[ellen364]

In a proper interview, I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable asking the money question first. E.g. I’ve chatted to managers who consider it a sign the candidate is only interested in money, not the company. Though, as I write, it occurs to me that kind of manager and company probably won’t pay well. So maybe asking the money question yourself would filter out the most price sensitive companies? Interesting idea, but not one I’ve tried.

[DeathArrow]

>the candidate is only interested in money, not the company

Of course I am interested in money, otherwise I would work for a charity, not a company.

I don't see anything wrong in being interested in getting money. Companies are not interested in the candidate, but in the amount of money a candidate can generate for them.

Exchanging work for money is business, not a romantic affair. And in a business you optimize for profit. More so when it is your only income, taking a huge part of your time and life and you have a family to take care of.

[abnercoimbre]

> Companies are not interested in the candidate, but in the amount of money a candidate can generate for them.

> And in a business you optimize for profit.

This is why it's in the employer's best interest to say that you're family, or that loyalty is a virtue. It makes it easier to low-ball your salary and keep it from rising too much.

[projektfu]

You might want to use a Wideband-Delphi method of estimating. Have everyone give you an estimate with their reason. Then send each one the list of estimates with the reasons attached and give them an opportunity to adjust their estimate. They will start to converge.

[908B64B197]

> and basically ended the interview on the spot. Told me that was more than they pay any of their senior positions.

You dodged a bullet. If they can't afford talent it's either that the business isn't doing good or that they voluntarily don't want to pay for talent (meaning they are going to go to competitors eating their lunch).

> In any case, just ranting. What's a good rate for a senior SWE or ML engineer in Europe these days? What can I get away with asking for without getting this reaction?

Same as in SV for SV caliber talent. The run of the mill recruiter isn't authorized to sign a contract with these numbers but it's getting incredibly common.

> Also, what's up with people asking this question in the first conversation?

Honestly, you want to have it as early as possible and not waste time with low balling firms. They can hires from body shops if they think they can get away with cheap devs.

[Okkef]

There is a huge difference in hourly paid people (consultants/freelancers) and salaried people (staff). Someone who makes 100k a year in a salaried position would charge 200 euro per hour as freelancer. A freelancer we hire for 100/hour would be salaried at 70k tops.

[DeathArrow]

Are those gross or net amounts?

[peelle]

> Also, what's up with people asking this question in the first conversation?

At least here in the USA, there's a lot of advice about deflecting that question. Things like, countering with "What are your pay ranges?", or "Let's wait to negotiate the salary until we're sure we're a good fit." and so on.

I believe the common reasoning that they ask early is to cut out overpriced developers. When a company gets lots of applicants this probably makes sense to them. I think generally, if you're a good fit they'll go a little above their max pay to try and bring you in.

[wollsmoth]

I don't have any number answers for you, but different companies set different budgets. They also have really different attrition numbers, but people who can get higher pay tend to not stick around too long at those lower jobs.

It's a wide range and it varies a lot, figure out what you want to be happy and try to find a company that can make it happen. This company might be used to skating by with cheaper engineers.

[erulabs]

I'm not sure about EU but there are still many many many hiring managers who think SWE/Devops/ML are just like any other employees and shouldn't get paid less than the middle managers about them.

Avoid those shops like the plague. If a company still doesn't understand that you get what you pay for in *current year*, they're not going to treat you well in non-monetary ways either.

[DeathArrow]

Is it a gross or a net amount?

In Europe when being contacted to work as a freelancer or contractor, they ask for a gross rate per hour.

The company aren't going to pay anything else and you are responsible for taxes, health insurance, social services, pension funds and so on.

The highest rate I was offered in Romania is 50 EUR / hour and I refused. I am not going to work with a B2B contract for less than 65 per EUR per hour.

For working contracts, with all taxes payed, contributions to social services, unemployment funds, health insurance and pension funds, as a SWE you can reach a 4000 to 5000 EUR in Romania and about 7000 to 8000 in Germany. These are net, not gross.

If you are employed as an architect instead of SWE, you can make a bit more, so now I am waiting to find a good SW architect position.

[radarsat1]

Oh thank you, this is very helpful.

[cupofpython]

"What is the budget for this role?"

"the scale and scope of responsibilities for the type of work I do have so much variation that it is impossible for me to tell you what I would expect to be paid for this position this early in the process"

[higeorge13]

Imo it’s a better approach to ask the salary range first and respond whether it’s adequate or not. This way the ball is on your field.

And btw i think you can make 90k+ eur as a contractor in europe, even more in companies with homogeneous pay across regions.