[apohn]

>If the pay isn't good, the culture and work should be. In academia, that's almost never true

When I think back to my thought process when I was applying for academic and research jobs after my PhD, there's one thing I remember that always keeps me from ever second guessing my decision to move to the private sector.

At least in my field, so many people in academia and research had big egos and were a-holes. Some of them were brilliant, many of them just thought they were. It was so easy to end up in a toxic mess. You know that interviewer who makes you feel small because they knew some random minutiae that you didn't know? There are plenty of those in academia and you'll be answerable to them.

I've worked for a bunch of big companies and there's less acceptance of a-holes. If nothing else, your colleagues will acknowledge they are a-holes and validate how you feel. Even if somebody is a brilliant 10X a-hole, a decent management layer will put walls around them to minimize their damage. And if you find yourself stuck working with or for an a-hole, you have more options to switch because there are more jobs.

[whymauri]

The closer I got to my PIs and their friends/enemies in various academic departments, the more I realized that university departmental politics are more stereotypically 'high school drama' than anything I actually experienced in high school! My god, professors can be so petty.

Don't consult a self-perceived expert on a field on a project you're considering? Uninvited from their July 4th BBQ.

Standing up for a junior tenure-track faculty who a senior person doesn't like? Have fun getting work done while scheduled to teach the 800 person remedial chemistry class, disparagingly called 'chemistry for artists.'

Need some equipment but you forgot to wish me happy birthday? Sorry, unforeseen maintenance lol. Oh please.

[bombcar]

As has been attributed to Sayre: "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low."

[misterkrabs]

So true, lol. Stoner by John Williams does a good job of showing this.

[bigdict]

Great novel.

[vecter]

My friend who is a professor at a university aiming for tenure put it succinctly: "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low."

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law

[oefrha]

The stakes are in fact very high for the academics themselves. There’s night and day difference between getting tenure, and not.

[apohn]

As whymauri has illustrated, there's a ton of pettiness that goes on between tenured professors and outside of anything to do with the tenure process. It's nothing but people with big egos being a small fish in a small pond and then stomping around like toddlers to make sure everybody knows they are there.

I still have memories of wanting to tell some of my tenured professors that they needed to grow up and find bigger things to cry about. I was in my 20s, they were all 40+.

At least IME, the younger non-tenured professors were less likely to engage in this pettiness because they had, as you have pointed out, a lot more to lose.

[oefrha]

I mean the perceived viciousness mostly stems from power imbalance (when it’s between tenured and untenured) and having a lot to lose. Two tenured assholes clashing is at best unpleasant.

[pfortuny]

No: the will to power is greatest because you have (supposedly) power over the creme of the creme.

As silly as that but Nietzsche had it right: the will to power is one of the primordial forces.

[LegitShady]

the creme of the creme are all working for big companies making big dollars. But I could imagine people in academia thinking they are the a big deal.

[fleetwoodsnack]

Ehh, I’m old enough now that I can LinkedIn/Facebook search my old classmates and see how the crème of my crop turned out. Everyone was smart but the genuine honest-to-god genius from our class is a research chemist at MIT. The richest is a former childrens’ toy maker (STEM-education startup exit).

[wolverine876]

What is that based on?

AFIAK, the leaders in almost every field are in academia, where they have the independence to do research, not earn profits, and where their research has the greatest impact because their employer doesn't hide it from the world as long as possible.

[derbOac]

Speaking from experience, the "not earn profits" part isn't actually true anymore in many places.

[wolverine876]

Are you saying that there is pressure on academic researchers to earn profits?

I noticed a major university announcing some new center to nurture businesses to monetize IP. I remember when universities tried to generate knowledge and value for society.

[vecter]

That's not really fair either. There are plenty of brilliant people in academia who don't care for big paychecks from corporations.

[borroka]

The ones I talk to all complain about the poor pay, relative to how much people make in industry. A few make the jump, especially those whose discipline allow them to transition easily to industry.

But try to be a tenure-track professor in biology at a mid academic institution. You are fed up, you want more money, money you think you deserve. Where do you go at, say, fifty years old?

[doliveira]

That's just for very, very specific fields.

For instance, for something very practical, market-ready, basically Engineering I'd say you're correct. For basic research, not at all.

[mirker]

Well ya know, industry solved Fermat’s Last theorem numerous times but only managed to scribble it in the corner of their performance review.

[LegitShady]

Industry solved it as many times as the academics have

[wolverine876]

A professor who had also worked in the private sector told me: In academia, everyone is smart and some of them are nice. In the private sector, everyone is nice and some of them are smart.

[dataflow]

> In the private sector, everyone is nice

This doesn't really square with the horror stories I see from the private sector.

[wolverine876]

I don't think they meant it literally, but more in the sense of different places on the trade-off continuum: E.g., academia is willing to tolerate more bad behavior but less lack-of-smarts.

[doliveira]

Everyone in the informal hyperbolic sense. Like 90%.

The remaining 10% are more than enough to account for the horror stories