[LocalH]

>medical prophylactic

The whole point of circumcision is to control the actions of the person later in life. This is extremely harmful, as you are removing another individual's agency for your own religious beliefs (or even worse, the mere notion "I was circumcized and I don't want my son to look different", which is pure vanity).

Genital mutilation is abhorrent. It should be illegal to perform on any infant or child unless there is a rare medical necessity to do so.

[natroniks]

> The whole point of circumcision is to control the actions of the person later in life.

How so? According to Judaism, the whole point of circumcision is to bear the mark of the promise between God and Abraham. But if you ask me, a modern non-orthodox Jew, circumcision is a rite of passage just like Communion, or Bar Mitzvahs, or any other non-natural step in growing up. It's different for everyone and no one has asked me why it is important. But I think that's really what it comes down to, Circumcision in Judaism is a physical and indelible representation of our belonging to a community whose practices have shifted and adapted over the millennia. One of the very few practices that is described in the Torah and is also carried out today is the brit milah. So, it's carrying on tradition. It is a connection (membership?) to a rather diverse group of people. It transcends geography and time, culture and language. It may be arbitrary - maybe Jews could've figured out another way to achieve all this. But I still don't understand the harm caused by circumcision. At least, no more harm than is caused by a huge number of medical procedures all types of kids may undergo as minors.

[jl6]

> > The whole point of circumcision is to control the actions of the person later in life.

> How so? … Circumcision in Judaism is a physical and indelible representation of our belonging to a community

You ask how circumcision controls a person, and you have provided the answer. The indelibility robs the person of the agency to choose not to belong to that community.

Could they leave anyway? Sure, the same way a person with gang tattoos can leave the gang.

[natroniks]

> The indelibility robs the person of the agency to choose not to belong to that community.

Most males born in the US are circumcised regardless of religious affiliation. It's not like circumcision alone makes someone part of the Jewish community. As I revealed earlier, I am a circumcised Jew, but What authority is controlling me? I am free to observe (or not) Jewish practices and traditions as I deem fit. Now having a US passport, or a driver's license, or a mortgage, or student loan debt? Those definitely place me under under control (financial or otherwise) of an authority. Being circumcised? I don't see how or by whom I am controlled.

> Could they leave anyway? Sure, the same way a person with gang tattoos can leave the gang.

Comparing membership of Jewish to membership of a gang seems pretty judgey. Maybe you're just anti-religion, and that's cool, but lets not compare Judaism, a world religion with thousands of years of history, to a gang. Unless you think all Christians also belong to a gang? Or like the vast majority of the world?

[jl6]

In ancient tribes where the practice arose, circumcision may well have been an effective and irreversible marker of tribal identity. If it has since become sufficiently widespread that it is no longer effective in that goal, then perhaps we can add that to the list of reasons why the practice belongs in the past.

I mention gangs not to equate them with any particular religion, but to highlight by example the difficulty of leaving a group identity when that group has permanently changed you.

Groups control their members through various means, the most insidious being engrainment of group attributes as identity. Once a person adopts an idea not merely as something they believe but as a core part of who they are, the idea becomes far harder to challenge as it starts to feel like personal attack rather than debate.

Identity is what controls you, when you cannot choose it. So I partly agree with your example - being a US citizen is not easy to choose (though not impossible), and your status and identity as a US citizen shapes many aspects of your life. If you could freely choose citizenship, it would be a far lesser part of your identity and you would be far less controlled by it.

That is why agency to choose, or not, to be circumcised, and thus agency to adopt that into your identity, is important.