[abeppu]

> so it lines up somewhat with increased rates of homosexuality

... but isn't it really hard to distinguish _actual_ rates of homosexuality from visible homosexuality? As public acceptance for LGBT people has increased, more people can feel safe coming out or identifying as gay.

Further, if the pill became widely available around 1970, and if this were an impactful factor, wouldn't you expect to see the corresponding change beginning in at least the mid 80s, as those kids grow up?

[oneoff786]

LGBT rates among zoomers is shockingly high to me. 20%, double that of millenials. Millenials are double that of Gen X. I tend to believe there’s a genuine biological phenomenon going on here. The next generation should be just starting to establish their sexual orientations. The data should be interesting…

[FalconSensei]

> LGBT rates among zoomers is shockingly high to me. 20%, double that of millenials

I would argue that double of zoomers are more comfortable assuming they are homosexuals, or even, zoomers are less afraid to explore and discover their sexuality instead of "I'm not doing X because I'm obviously not gay, I'm macho" kinda of thinking, and are happier for that.

[abeppu]

I'm not saying nothing genuinely biological is happening, and it's totally plausible, but I am saying one has to be careful about the available evidence and how it's interpreted.

The only thing we can really measure is what people say about themselves, often in a poll/survey/study context. More people are identifying as LGBT in the younger generations. We have no way of knowing how many people in each generation are some form of closeted. But people's increased rates of _identifying_ as LGBT have occurred in an environment where both cultural and chemical/biological factors have shifted. How could you disentangle their effects?

I think there's a risk when making claims about anything that has stigma attached to it. How prevalent has sexual assault been, over time? How many kids are raised with corporal punishment? If you expect that both their prevalence, and the willingness of people to report or talk about it changes over time, how could you know when rates go up or down?

[oneoff786]

Pick a Bayesian prior and roll with it. 20% of Gen Z is identifying as LGBT. Seems high to me. If we see another doubling for the next generation then something would seem to be obviously different. One doesn’t need to disentangle the effects per se

[concinds]

The increase is almost entirely in bisexuality. I think the biological argument is strong.

[staticman2]

We have records showing male male sex was common in ancient Greece.

[oneoff786]

Yeah, mostly rich older dudes fucking young boys. Greece was not some idyllic free love society. It was just that being a top was super manly and being a bottom was not. You didn’t have wealthy men in openly gay equal relationships with other men.

[Der_Einzige]

Pretty sure poor people weren't being allowed into the most elite unit in the Greek world (since you had to buy your armor!)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

[oneoff786]

From your own source

> According to Plutarch, the 300 hand-picked men were chosen by Gorgidas purely for ability and merit, regardless of social class.[18] It was composed of 150 male couples,[15] each pair consisting of an older erastês (ἐραστής, "lover") and a younger erômenos (ἐρώμενος, "beloved").

Older dudes with their designated younger bottoms.

I’ll also recommend https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Gre...

Over a niche historical anecdote

> During Plato's time there were some people who were of the opinion that homosexual sex was shameful in any circumstances. Indeed, Plato himself eventually came to hold this view. At one time he had written that same-sex lovers were far more blessed than ordinary mortals. He even gave them a headstart in the great race to get back to heaven, their mutual love refeathering their mottled wings. Later he seemed to contradict himself. In his ideal city, he says in his last, posthumously published work known as The Laws, homosexual sex will be treated the same way as incest. It is something contrary to nature, he insists, calling it "utterly unholy, odious-to-the-gods and ugliest of ugly things".[31]