[jseban]

This is just false, people happily "exploit" themselves to make more money, and it makes perfect sense because society is based completely on exploitation, your job as well as anyone's.

Middle class people want to project misery and suffering that don't exist, on unwilling "workers", just to validate their own silly middle class job.

If you really believe in unions, then fight for a union in your own workplace.

[rakoo]

No, capitalism is based on exploitation, and it's true that current society is neck-deep in neoliberalism but that hasn't always been true. Other organizations existed, that were completely horizontal, without hierarchies and exploitation. Those are not in human nature, as was documented by these guys: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56269264-the-dawn-of-eve...

> If you really believe in unions, then fight for a union in your own workplace.

I believe work is the creator of riches, and such riches are to be redistributed by those who made it, by remembering that we all depend on each other so there can't be personal property if it harms someone else or the environment. Unions are a step in this direction and I do fight for them but it's only the first step.

[jseban]

You don't have any better alternative to capitalism, that's just crackpot preaching. Trust me when I say that the "workers" are not interested in overthrowing capitalism, you will have to recruit your cult members somewhere else.

[rakoo]

Of course I have alternativeas, but I feel like you don't want to discuss.

I don't know how you can be so condescending as to say you know everything there is to know about workers and I don't. Workers want to have an easier life than what they have right now, and capitalism will not help them

[jseban]

> I don't know how you can be so condescending as to say you know everything there is to know about workers and I don't.

Because I am working class.

Workers are way too close to reality to ever get seduced by such ideas, they create things with their own hands, so they understand perfectly well that this needs to be done, to create any value for anyone.

It's only sheltered middle class people with bullshit jobs who come up with the idea that we could somehow just get rid of this annoying work.

[rakoo]

And I'm working class as well

> Workers are way too close to reality to ever get seduced by such ideas, they create things with their own hands, so they understand perfectly well that this needs to be done, to create any value for anyone.

You're perfectly describing why workers are interested in overthrowing capitalism, because workers produce the riches, create the value and know what it's worth. Why should the value be given to said bullshit jobs so they can do whatever they want with it including not giving workers their fair share ?

[jseban]

> because workers produce the riches, create the value and know what it's worth. Why should the value be given to said bullshit jobs so they can do whatever they want with it including not giving workers their fair share ?

Workers only play one part in this, not the whole. The factory was built by someone who had a design for it, and you need investments, with returns for that to ever happen.

The "workers" never build any factories, it's impossible to get a large amount of people to pull in the same direction and realise such an idea, without having a central single point of leadership.

And for anyone to take on that leadership and take that risk, there needs to be a reward.

You need to think about the future, not only today. If you share everything with the workers you will just exhaust that resource, and then get outcompeted by others who allow more innovation.

As we have already seen in history for example with the car industry in detroit, or England in the late 1970s. So what is your argument for why it should work this time, and why we should apply the politics of the 1970s? No argument whatsoever other than "trust me, I know a better alternative to capitalism". Sorry but that's just nonsense.

The most important thing for everyone is to be as close as possible to the next jeff bezos. The only way you can have a good job is to be close to

1. innovation or 2. extraction of natural resources.

Because that's how value is created, and how opportunity arise. There is no pie being delivered by "someone else" for ever and ever, that you just have to divide.

Leftist always assume that these opportunities come out of nowhere, and will also last forever.

It leads to stagnation.

Sooner or later you run out of other people's money.