[saucerful]

Couldn't disagree more.

His vilification of these so-called "shadow jobs" boils down to this vague and indirect reference to an increase in "fatigue". I don't find any substance to this. The point of ATMs and ticket machines and self-service gas is that human labor is usually inefficient. You pay for human labor by the hour. It doesn't matter if the CPU time during that hour is 1 minute. In almost all cases, a human worker will entail wasted VARIABLE costs. On the other hand, if the bank buys too many ATMs, the waste is for the most part a fixed cost.

And notice, the quality of service can sometimes _improve_ with machines! E.g., without ATMs we would still have to be concerned about whether we could make it to the bank on time before it closed to withdraw cash or deposit a check. In all of the cases mentione, the combination of machine and human labor allows the seller to satisfy more customers at less cost. Now, it's possible that we are also sacrificing something. But to be honest, in all of the examples that he mentions, I personally do not feel any sacrifice.

What is plainly true, however, is the rise in such self service. And the question of how this affects us, is interesting. I would speculate that one of these effects is an increase in anti-social behavior.

[henrikschroder]

Another thing is that if everyone at a location has to be serviced by a person, then everyone currently not being served have to wait in line for their turn. They're not doing shadow work, but they're equally improductive.

Airport check-in machines are a fantastic thing because it speeds up the process. The airport can have ten times as many machines as desks, and that means your check-in will be about ten times faster. That's a lot of time saved that you can use for something else.

And you can still have service personnel and machines at the same time. I can check-in at the desk or through a machine. I can withdraw money by going inside the bank, or use the ATM outside. I can do the self-checkout in a store, or have it done by a cashier, and so on.

[bmj]

I'm not sure the ATM is the best example, at least for simple transactions like withdrawing or depositing funds. Aside from the social interaction with a teller, using an ATM doesn't save me much time or work. Self-checkout kiosks at the grocery store, however, allow the business to push costs on the consumers because scanning and bagging my groceries does require more effort on my part. I'm not sure that is contributing to more fatigue (perhaps this is due to people working more hours?), however.

What is plainly true, however, is the rise in such self service. And the question of how this affects us, is interesting. I would speculate that one of these effects is an increase in anti-social behavior.

And this, I suspect, is what Illich was most interested in. (I've not read this particular book, however).

[yummyfajitas]

Aside from the social interaction with a teller, using an ATM doesn't save me much time or work.

Do you live right next to a bank? Until very recently, the closest bank branch was about 10 blocks away from my home. The ATM 2 blocks away (in a closet-sized retail space too small for a real bank) saved me miles of walking.

[rmc]

In my experience there are vastly more ATMs than bank desks. There are ATMs in shops and bars and on many street corners.ATMs are also available 24/7 not 10-4.