[toolz]

I know many poor country citizens who have had their families lifted into middle class even by american standards because companies were able to pay them in bitcoin whereas USD wasn't possible.

You aren't alone, though. There are many in their first-world bubble that don't see the benefits of crypto because their fiat fulfills all their needs. The same way you've never gone hungry, that doesn't mean food scarcity doesn't exist.

[derriz]

Could you provide a bit of detail? Like giving some examples of companies that pay their employees in bitcoin?

I'm somewhat sceptical as I know someone who works for a company in a role organising payment to employees in poorer and third-world countries. They've told me lots of interesting stories about navigating the bureaucracy, nepotism and avoiding extortion/corruption to ensure people were paid but never that bitcoin was involved.

[toolz]

then your friend knows all to well how difficult it is to get fiat to these people. Not every company has the resources to navigate corruption and red tape in other countries when they can simply pay them in bitcoin and be ensured the worker won't be subjected to extortion/corruption stealing their paycheck.

Sorry I can't provide more details, I don't really know if everything happening is totally legal? I assume it is for the US company, but I'm sure you can find more details if you look hard enough.

[derriz]

That’s not particularly convincing. If I can find the information by searching as you recommend, then the information is already out there so you wouldn’t be revealing secrets by providing the detail or a link to the relevant search results?

[toolz]

it doesn't seem easy to find details and I'm not particularly interested to keep digging, if you legitimately can't fathom that places exist where moving fiat across borders is practically impossible then I don't know what to tell you

[derriz]

I don’t get you? I’m not asking you to provide evidence that “places exist where moving fiat across borders is practically impossible“.

I’m interested in the many poor people you know who have been lifted into middle class through being paid in BTC by American employers. It’s a fairly bold claim from what I know of the way multinational companies operate globally so I’m genuinely curious about it.

[toolz]

sorry I misunderstood you. Possibly because I can't really comprehend what you're asking still. I won't give you these peoples names and location, if that's what you're asking for - I simply know that I'm aware of a group of contracted developers that I have spent a good deal of time talking to, that were paid in bitcoin because they claimed it was infeasible to get paid in USD due to their local regulations.

I'm not sure where the bold claim is - there are plenty of articles detailing companies who openly pay contractors in bitcoin, so I must still misunderstand you?

[lmm]

>> oligarchs can safely drain some third world country’s economy

> I know many poor country citizens who have had their families lifted into middle class even by american standards

Sounds like you're describing the same thing as the person you replied to - a small number of people evading or breaking their country's laws so that they can enrich themselves.

[toolz]

similar in action, but vastly different in the ethics and consequence - in the same way that stealing a loaf of bread from a wealthy person to save a starving child is considered by most to be ethical, ignoring overbearing laws to provide for your family I consider ethical. You're free to disagree, but that's vastly different than the rich evading paying back into a society that enabled them to being wealthy. Magnitude always matters.

[lmm]

> that's vastly different than the rich evading paying back into a society that enabled them to being wealthy.

Given that you're talking about people earning a middle-class-US money, likely putting them in at least the top percentile or two, I think it's actually exactly the same thing. Even millionaires will tell you they're not rich and point to people who are richer than them to justify why they feel that way, but you shouldn't believe them.

[toolz]

well that's definitely your opinion, but when the choices are being poor by a poor countries standards or taking a job that allows you to pay for your entire immediate families lifestyle - the choice for me is obvious

It's also obvious this choice is barely even in the same category as an oligarch that has to choose between being in the top 100 richest people on earth and the top 10,000 richest people on earth.

There's effectively nothing different about a top 10k and top 100 richest persons lifestyle options, they can do practically anything they want so long as it can be bought.

[lmm]

> It's also obvious this choice is barely even in the same category as an oligarch that has to choose between being in the top 100 richest people on earth and the top 10,000 richest people on earth.

If you're at the top 10,000 level you'll think there's no difference between the top 1 and top 100 but a huge difference between the top 100 and top 10,000. If you're at the top 1,000,000 level you'll think there's no difference between the top 100 and top 10,000 but a huge difference between the top 10,000 and top 1,000,000. And so on at every level.

[yunohn]

> pay them in bitcoin whereas USD wasn't possible

Why would they want to pay them in USD and not the local currency? What was preventing them from official employment?

[nixlim]

So, slightly on a tangent, but I feel it is still applicable: several of the people I work with live in countries with restrictive currency controls, specifically, moving money out of the country above certain trivial sum requires gov permission which is granted for specific purposes only. Opening an account in another country is both illegal from their local perspective and is not straight forward generally for anyone else - I tried opening a US Bank account from the UK and that was not easy. Being paid in BC allows for a lot of flexibility for them.

I think the point about 1st world bubble is fair, in my opinion

[yunohn]

The examples you state are not the primary reason that people want to be paid in crypto. It’s the potential for a speculative windfall and desire to avoid taxation that drives the need.

[toolz]

> The examples you state are not the primary reason that people want to be paid in crypto

This claim can be dismissed as easily as it was made. Quite literally everyone I know getting paid in crypto (which is only a dozen or so) would rather be paid in fiat but can't because of regulations.

[lottin]

What regulations prevent people from getting paid in "fiat" currency?

[nixlim]

To pick one: - getting paid from abroad qualifies a journalist, or anyone for that matter, as foreign agent in Russia. This comes with obligations of monthly income/expenditure reporting, and unemployability for as long as you are on that register.

[toolz]

Their local regulations, which is exactly the problem crypto aims to solve.

Some see illegal activity - I see consenting individuals being enabled to engage in free trade. Personally I would question anyone that would believe people shouldn't be able to trade their resources freely with consenting individuals. Humans shouldn't be slaves to the authoritarians they may have been born under.

The solution to stopping unethical activity should be to stop that unethical activity. It shouldn't be to limit and regulate all activity to simply make it less convenient to participate in unethical activity.

[yunohn]

> Their local regulations

You’re claiming that these countries prevent people from being paid money for work?

Crypto is a luxury even for people in such countries, it’s not a feasible alternative to local fiat.

> The solution to stopping unethical activity should be to stop that unethical activity

Thanks for clearing that up! I wasn’t aware that the solution was so simple.

[toolz]

> You’re claiming that these countries prevent people from being paid money for work?

Yes, it's quite common even in the US you can't work without a visa. Other countries have much stricter rule depending on things like sanctions etc.

> Crypto is a luxury even for people in such countries, it’s not a feasible alternative to local fiat.

Except when it isn't - which is exactly the case I'm describing.

> Thanks for clearing that up! I wasn’t aware that the solution was so simple.

Really no need for snark. No one said it was simple. You know it would be much easier to presume guilt until proven innocence too, but that doesn't make it a better approach to creating a healthy society.

[hansonkd13]

So the only use for crypto is that regulations haven’t caught up to it? Used to pay illegal immigrants and circumvent sanctions, which is still illegal whether or not crypto makes it possible.

[toolz]

I wouldn't say that's the only use, but it is a very legitimate use. Let's not forget legality is not morality. I consider it highly unethical to prevent someone from trade simply because you don't like where one of the individual lives.

[filleduchaos]

Disclaimer: For most of my career I've been paid in USD, but never in crypto. I'm not a fan of it, but I'm not too blind to see why my peers are using it.

> Why would they want to pay them in USD and not the local currency?

To be blunt, because the local currency is useless. You're presumably from somewhere in the Western world, so smack dab in the very first-world bubble being discussed here where "fiat" means stability and not simply a measure of an economy in free fall. Outside of the world's strongest economies there is very real incentive for individuals and businesses alike to hold currencies that don't lose significant amounts of their value from month to month. I started at my current role in April 2021 at which point the parallel market exchange rate was ₦480 to $1; earlier this month I exchanged currencies at ₦600 to $1. Less than a decade ago in 2014/15 the pm exchange rate was ₦200 to $1. Why on earth, if I had a choice, would I take a salary pegged to the naira in such conditions?

People in the first world also vastly overestimate how useful holding [local] fiat is in the global market. Sure when your currency underpins the global economy you never have to think about foreign exchange, but for most developing countries pretty much no international marketplaces will take your local money. They may show localised prices but the actual transactions are settled in USD (or similar), which is often harshly controlled. For example naira-denominated Mastercards and Visa cards here have international spending limits - currently those limits are as low as $20 a month (not an exaggeration or typo) from major banks in the country. Middle-class people resort to using virtual dollar card services (which charge exorbitant rates, and which are often detected/blocked by platforms) to be able to pay for basic subscriptions. And for bigger expenses, getting large amounts of foreign currency ($1000+) from local currency involves either filing a Form A with the central bank (you get dollars at the official exchange rate, but the process takes a month or more, must be for an approved purpose, and again has spending limits - if you want to travel for tourism/business you can request a maximum of $4000, if you're attending a foreign university you can request a maximum of $15000 for tuition and $5000 for living expenses per semester, etc) or doing quasi-legal transactions at bureau de changes that are charged at the parallel market rate.

Whether or not you consider those limits too frugal, I personally am not interested in the government restricting me from spending literally my own money. So I simply receive and hold my salary in foreign currency and exchange a fraction of it to the naira for day-to-day living expenses. All my international transactions - new electronics, flight tickets, etc - I pay for directly. If I want to send money to friends or family outside the country I can do that without fuss. I'm able to receive USD directly because I have a foreign currency account and restrictions on the foreign exchange of the naira don't apply to it obviously. Not everyone can get one (e.g. most banks require you to present two references who themselves have FCAs to qualify), so they turn to alternatives like Payoneer and Wise. But those charge significant fees to make profit and will ban/block accounts especially of people from the developing world on a hair trigger (and also recent government controls mean that you can no longer withdraw from those accounts to a local naira account, so getting cash for local expenses is an issue), so recently people are increasingly turning to cryptocurrencies as well.

You need to understand that in a failing economy, crypto is just another foreign currency - one that is in some ways easier to obtain and hold safely (under a government that can and will freeze your bank account for dissident activity) than traditional foreign currencies. It's volatile, but averaged over time it's certainly held its value significantly better than the naira ever has. It's a gamble, but people don't have the luxury of caring as strongly about the risk as those who can comfortably rely on their own fiat. I consider myself lucky that I've been able to avoid using it; I don't judge those that have.

> What was preventing them from official employment?

You cannot officially employ people in a jurisdiction you do not operate in.

For all HN talks about remote work and hiring all over the world, how exactly do you imagine that works out legally? My employer certainly considers me a full-time employee in spirit (and so do I), but the paperwork is quite clear that I'm an independent contractor - same for all my non-American colleagues.

[uxcolumbo]

Thanks for that insight. I didn’t know about those restrictions of withdrawing your own money.

How did you open an USD account? Did you have to travel to the US?

If you had to do it today, would you use services like Wise. Being paid in crypto currencies seems unrealistic if you’re working for companies like Intel, not sure they would pay you in BTC.

[filleduchaos]

My USD account is with a local bank - most countries AFAIK allow residents to open foreign currency accounts in USD, EUR or GBP at least. Here they are pretty tightly controlled because foreign currencies are not legal tender, but I can live with those restrictions (can't transfer money to FCAs in other banks, can't transfer more than a certain amount of money per month within the bank through electronic channels, can't have anyone apart from yourself deposit cash/checks in the account, etc) as long as I can make reasonable purchases off my card without worrying about the payment being blocked.

I've used Wise in the past (their borderless account) but had my account deactivated for no discernible reason, which was frustrating. I'd use their direct-to-account transfer service, but because of central bank regulations passed in 2020 they are no longer permitted to send/deposit naira in Nigerian bank accounts. This actually cut off quite a few people I know from receiving international payments - some scrambled to open foreign currency accounts, some got pushed to receiving crypto whether directly or through now-existing platforms like Sendcash. So now I just get my salary through regular old SWIFT transfers - my employer takes on the transfer fees, but I still get debited $20 for receiving them.

You're right that being paid in crypto is unrealistic for a company like Intel, because giant multinationals like that either have a local presence (Microsoft has an engineering office in my city) or have huge relocation budgets (Amazon, Google, etc usually move hires from here to offices in Europe). Some smaller companies and startups will offer to assist with relocation, but understandably will take local talent over someone that needs to sort out a visa and work permit the vast majority of the time.

[dilyevsky]

If someone robs a bank and $100 falls out while they get away that you later find, that makes robbing banks noble by your logic?

[toolz]

I'm struggling to understand your connection at all. There's a difference between legality and ethics. Something can be illegal and it would be immoral for someone to obey that law. Similarly something can be illegal and it wouldn't be immoral for someone to ignore that law.

[dilyevsky]

The point is just bc someone happened to benefit from it doesn’t make it good overall. Im sure some people must make money off various mlm schemes

[toolz]

and who exactly is harmed when two people engage in free trade with resources they own? In your example the bank robber does not own the money, it was stolen and the robber has no claim, only possession.

[dilyevsky]

Easy - in case of btc money is stolen from people who subsidize cheap electricity (ie taxpayers). Various altcoins - future holders of bag

[toolz]

you're using electricity just to comment on this thread - presumably you're okay with that, so what makes your electricity usage justified and not bitcoin owners? Both forms of electricity have been paid for (presumably) with resources you own and traded in good faith. It's not illegal to use electricity to mine crypto in the vast majority of places.

as for altcoins I really don't know what your point is