[rco8786]

It was just a random example, you can literally pick any level in any number of abstraction stacks that exist and make the same analogy.

Sometimes it becomes necessary to know how the level below works. That doesn’t mean it’s a requirement to be affective at the level above.

[Calavar]

> That doesn’t mean it’s a requirement to be affective at the level above.

Not necessarily, but it did have a material effect in the original example. A web developer drug in a complex, unnecessary framework because she didn't realize that HTML forms have the ability to submit post and get data natively.

To me that's like a civil engineer building a suspension bridge over a tiny creek because they never heard of an arch design.

[joshmanders]

> A web developer drug in a complex, unnecessary framework because she didn't realize that HTML forms have the ability to submit post and get data natively.

You're making a massive assumption that she didn't already need to use React and may have been confused at how she would make the two systems work together correctly.

[smoochy]

Let me settle this debate: as I originally stated, the young developer was not stupid at all. She knew about HTML and forms and everything. She just didn't know how to work with it and, more importantly, she didn't want to get into that at the time, explaining that she didn't "want the site to look ugly" and that it was "a project for the portfolio" (implying that she needed to demonstrate her React skills).

So that's what's really troubled me. The companies responsible for producing this piece of garbage are actually getting into the heads of the younger generation, rendering them helpless without said garbage. I repeat, this is indeed garbage, especially React: in early 2000s we used to laugh at people mixing JavaScript and HTML, but some of them, apparently, decided it was their time to strike back.

The more important issue is, of course, that we have a generation of young people working with these "tools" which isolate them from learning things that actually matter. These levels of abstraction DO NOT add any value. These are "cargo cults" of abstractions, which without their authors knowledge (because those who invented them weren't very smart anyway) serve the purpose of keeping potentially talented and intelligent people ignorant and average. This is probably good news for somebody out there, but certainly not for us as a society.

[joshmanders]

> serve the purpose of keeping potentially talented and intelligent people ignorant and average

Man I think you're thinking wayyyyy to deep into stuff.

[cmroanirgo]

Agree.

I would add that even good old, rock solid assembler isn't a straight entry point into controlling the CPU, but is now just an abstraction over µOPs. Abstractions surround us these days, and for each of us, we find differing levels of what's tolerable vs what should be known about the next layer below.

I'm personally (kinda) ok with not knowing too much about the sub-assembler processes that happen inside the literal black box called a CPU, but I know that for branch optimisation, it's important.

[Guvante]

I would categorize things as "does someone on the team need to know this":

* Why does a key appear on the screen when I push a button on my keyboard: no

* How is an HTTPS connection created: generally no

* How is the JavaScript library deployed: 100% yes

You might be able to throw something together that works without understanding that it is a JavaScript library with a bootstrap HTML page but if no one on your team understand that you will eventually need to find someone that does to solve a problem.

[Kalium]

> * How is an HTTPS connection created: generally no

I would think that people doing web development probably benefit from a working knowledge of DNS, TLS, and PKI. Without those, I would expect a lot of readily avoidable problems with HTTPS.

In general I advocate that software engineers should have a functional, if abstract, understanding of how computers work on various levels. They might not need a detailed understanding, but people often benefit in unexpected ways from understanding the systems they work with.

[Spivak]

In 2022 that person is ops not dev. None of my devs have any knowledge [1] about TLS, DNS, or even TCP. The only interaction devs have with the messy outside world is Rack/WSGI, their DB ORM, their Queue/Job abstraction, and the AWS client libs.

[1] Not like they literally don’t know but that their code has no interaction with it.

[10000truths]

That veil of abstraction gets pierced very quickly the moment you need to debug an issue or regression in your application. I'm working on an internal application that's using Django in my current job, and there are plenty of instances where we've had to run an EXPLAIN on the generated MySQL query to identify performance bottlenecks.