[Auracle]

> but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU.

This is said a lot online, but I'd like some concrete examples. Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, and the US left still wants more. Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries, but our rich still need to pay their "fair share." The left in the US wants us to essentially have completely open borders, and there's been a huge pushback to the 'refugees' coming to Europe.

There are some things where we're more right than Europe because Republicans or our constitution won't allow it, but that doesn't mean the American left isn't overwhelmingly quite far left.

And quite frankly, if you're comparing Republicans to Hitler you're too far left yourself to have a balanced perspective. You could just as easily say something like "The way the Democratic party treats white men in recent years is uncannily similar to how Hitler treated Jews..."

Both are ridiculous statements.

[dathinab]

> Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries,

The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context. Which is far far more strict then most EU countries. And the current legality status is in a legal gray are as far as I know, which is also worse then in many EU countries, through in practice in some states might not. And sure there are EU countries which are also quite far right.

> Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries

Progressive is not the same as left/right. I'm not sure a tax system can be left/right at all. But if we look at the usage of taxes than it's a very clear no.

> but our rich still need to pay their "fair share."

No, not at all. Through sadly that is the case for huge parts of the word.

> The left in the US wants us to essentially have completely open borders, and there's been a huge pushback to the 'refugees' coming to Europe.

The US (and EU) are a major (but not the only) drivers behind the conflicts leading to the refuges...

[PraetorianGourd]

> The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context

I will let you in on a little secret. The right doesn't actually want to ban abortions. They need the carrot of banning abortions to turn out voters, and abortion is a very powerful single issue. By this I mean, there are plenty of left-leaning folks who would abandon Bernie if he came out as anti-abortion, and there are plenty on the right who would turn on their candidates if they came out pro-choice.

By the same token, the left also needs the right to keep wanting to ban abortions (but failing) so they can turn out the vote. It isn't as binary as it seems.

[travisathougies]

> The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context.

While it's true that some republican run states are going this direction. If we look at the original case that will likely lead the SC to overturn Roe v Wade (again, it hasn't even happened yet), would be a European style ban, where abortion is allowed up until 15 weeks (this is a typical European cutoff). I believe the Mississippi law also has exceptions based on maternal health or fetal disability, which in countries like Germany, would actually require government approval in the late second and third trimester [1]. After the Roe v Wade leak, only a few GOP states have attempted to ban abortion outright. Popular GOP governors like Ron Desantis, whose name keeps coming up for 2024, signed a Mississippi style 15-week ban in Florida, instead of a full on ban.

So, while it's certainly true same in the party want a 100% ban, it's also true that the mainstream ones (again, DeSantis is extremely popular, so is a good indicator of 'centrist' republican thought) are not going that direction and instead making our laws more similar to Western European countries.

[teachrdan]

Totally false. In most western European countries, women can trivially get approved for abortion after 15 weeks. For example, in the UK, if two doctors agree that it would be too damaging for a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, she can get an abortion even after 15 weeks.

Compare that to the man you said represents the mainstream of the GOP. Ron DeSantis signed a law banning abortion after 15 weeks "without exemptions for rape, incest or human trafficking.

https://www.bpas.org/get-involved/campaigns/briefings/aborti...

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/14/politics/desantis-signs-a...

[travisathougies]

In the United states, including in Mississippi, which started this case that went to the Supreme court, there is no government intervention at all in your approval to have an abortion. If you're past fifteen weeks and meet the criteria, your abortion is none of the government's business. That is significantly more progressive than Europe, and any other take is not in good faith.

> Ron DeSantis signed a law banning abortion after 15 weeks "without exemptions for rape, incest or human trafficking.

You are deliberately misrepresenting the law and what I said about it. Your own article says:

> The bill, which goes into effect July 1, does allow exemptions in cases where a pregnancy is "serious risk" to the mother or a fatal fetal abnormality is detected if two physicians confirm the diagnosis in writing.

And Germany has no automatic exception for rape after fifteen weeks. It's up to the government. There is no government involvement in getting abortion approval in Florida. That makes florida more progressive.

In fact, in Germany, abortion is illegal at all stages, just merely decriminalized. So again, Florida et al are more progressive. I don't understand why we have to do this pointless thing where we just pretend America is less libertine than all of Europe. In fact in Germany, their courts have ruled that unborn fetuses are innately entitled to human rights. The only reason abortion is allowed is because the courts have said it's okay for the legislature to not punish this kind of murder (that's what the German courts say it is, not my opinion)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany

[dathinab]

You are to focused on the text of law, instead of the actual implications for the person needing a abortion.

If you look at the actual law: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/BJNR001270871.html#B...

It boils down to (per paragraph):

(1) if you follow the right procedure (consulting, 3 days waiting then decision, done by doctor, no more then 12 weeks) it basically doesn't count as a crime (practically it's in a semi state between crime and not crime due to the constitutional court ruling you mentioned, it's anyway clear cut something you can not be convicted/pursed for, which is all that matters).

(2) if there are serve medical issues abortion is not against the law. This paragraph can theoretically apply to some cases of rape victims as it does explicitly mention mental medical issues/damage additional to physical issues.

(3) explicitly/automatically makes 2 apply to rape victims through only up to 12 weeks (since getting pregnant, not since the last period). Doesn't mean it can't apply post 12 weeks.

(4) the person having the aborting can not be punished if the abortion was done by a doctor and no more then 22 weeks passed (the doctor might be punished thou), if the person was pressured into it the judge can decide to not punish even if they normally would need to.

So what does that mean

- no the government is not involved, you never have to ask the government, only doctors

- yes post 12week there is no automatic exception, but you still do not need to ask the government a doctor is enough

- through theoretically a court case could be pushed to decide if the decision of the doctor was correct and paragraph 2 does apply to a rape victim in a post 12 week abortion so the best way to avoid that is to make sure its very clear that it's the case before doing the abortion, the lead to the common practice of getting two doctors to agree with the abortion (one of which isn't involved in the abortion in any other way). Even better (but not required!) would be to get the agreement of a state doctor (which is I guess where the idea of needing government approval comes from). Through saying a "state doctor" is part of the government is very very misleading, technically true trough. But their role is more like "doctors the government believes are competent and trust". I.e. their medical decisions are still independent from the government.

And sure this can be improved by a lot.

But then at least harassment of people going for a abortion is neither common nor tolerated in Germany (but seems to be common in parts of the US). Similar there is no in general no "attack" against doctors which do abortions, nodded of abortions as reasonable in Germany. Which from what I have heard happens in some US states often enough to be called systematic.

In the end for any conclusion I guess you would need to speak with people having gone through abortions (in various contexts/circumstances/US states/German states etc.).

PS: Depending on when you start counting the 12 weeks here might also be referred to as 14 weeks.

[nomel]

Getting approval from a doctor, requiring a justified medical requirement, is not remotely trivial. I think you’re very unfamiliar with what some of the pro-abortion people are pushing in the US.

[MSM]

>This is said a lot online, but I'd like some concrete examples.

I think that really depends on which policies you're considering to determine how liberal or conservative a country is.

If you're looking at things like Universal Healthcare, Reproductive Rights (which you mentioned, interestingly- but skirted over the fact that they are likely being rolled back to being illegal at any stage past fertilization in many states- much more conservative than other countries), College tuition, universal basic income or workers rights, the US is objectively conservative.