[dtagames]

So true! Also, there are no decent UI frameworks for Lisp, so it's impossible to build a full stack app that looks good in a modern browser without adding a TS or JS web component layer. And... There's no modern IDE for Lisp.

I think this aspect of ignoring UIs and aesthetics has seriously held back CL.

[metagame]

That's not true at all, and I'm tempted to write something to prove you wrong.

My aesthetic choices were intentional, and almost nothing in your comment is right.

[smcn]

I'd love read that rebuttal. And I'd ensure that I read it in its gloriously yellow form.

[lobstrosity420]

> Also, there are no decent UI frameworks for Lisp

How about CLOG and cl-cffi-gtk?

[dtagames]

Ok, thank you for those references I had not seen. CLOG looks like it creates the UI separately and essentially "streams" it to you over a websocket. While novel, that introduces it own problems. Perhaps this why there aren't any working examples that I could find?

The CL library you linked is for connection to GTK, a desktop UI scheme. So, while interesting, that doesn't really help someone who is trying to develop a browser-native app, which is where the world has gone at the moment.

I think Lisp got left behind on the journey, and I think this UI problem is one of the top reasons, the other one being terrible-non-IDE-like-substances.

[lobstrosity420]

The CLOG approach is not that novel. It's the same tech that Laravel Livewire, Rails Hotwire and Phoenix Liveview are pioneering. I mentioned GTK because your original comment hadn't mentioned you needed browser-native functionality specifically. For that, you would be well served with CLOG or you can try something like HTMX with a CL backend that serves just HTML.

I wouldn't go as far as to say CL got left behind in the journey, it's still very much alive. But if you want to go with something with more mainstream appeal (not a bad want IMO) there's always Clojure.