[wfleming]

From Soft games are, I think, popular with a particular niche precisely because they swim against the tide here.

Even their games, though, although they are famously and genuinely difficult, do try and guide the player to success. They just do it in somewhat subtle ways by trying to kill you a lot. I’ve been watching a let’s play series on YouTube of Dark Souls I & III for a while (“Souls Academy”), and one of things I enjoy about it is how they often talk about what skills particular bosses or game areas are trying to teach you, so that you can be successful with later, harder challenges.

But you’re completely right that these games aren’t “hard not to finish”. They’re extremely hard to finish!

[spywaregorilla]

I thought Elden Ring was a bit weird in this regard. Margit is likely the first boss people fight. And he does introduce a lot of concepts that seem pertinent. He's classic souls boss with a few touches of the game's unique concepts. He hits very fast, sometimes without telegraphing. If you're competent at Margit then Godrey is likely to be mechanically simpler.

But then for some reason every single other major boss is very gimmicky and does not draw upon this. Radahn is a (fun) clusterfuck with yer boys. Rennala just has projectiles and no defenses. Rykard is... just poorly designed and can't hit you if you're in melee range. Fire Giant is a gimmicky horse battle. Astel is sort of similar to Rennala. Hoarah does his own thing with grabs and jumpable stomps. Malekith and Malenia are so awkwardly fast that you need to be proactively positioning rather than reacting to their telegraphed moves for the most part.

Then you've got at the endgame Morgot and Radagon who, for some reason, seem to be not only simpler, but significantly slower opponents than Margit.

Not a complaint really. I thought boss design was great and entertaining. But definitely a bit unusual. Sekiro's boss progression was amazing and the best I've ever seen. It's a really great inflection point when Genichiro swings by to make sure you understand the game's not gonna fuck around anymore.

[rubyist5eva]

I found the biggest challenge with Margit was that he telegraphs too much. Hell raise his weapon and then just hold it much longer than you think he will, you roll early and then he punishes you.

[spywaregorilla]

That move is interesting. If you hang back he does a spinning jump attack twice which is a little tricky to dodge but very consistent. You run towards him he will do a single strike. To me it felt like they were trying to teach you that this game needs you to disengage and sprint during fights. Either running away from him or running around to his backside work well for that.

On the converse is his upwards slash. That thing has basically no indicators and comes out faster than you're likely able to dodge... almost. If you fight him for a while it becomes apparent that when he wants to do this move he will walk towards you and otherwise will never do so. I couldn't tell if this was an intentional mechanic. Malenia later does something similar and it makes her fight much easier when you can understand her intentions before she begins doing any of her moves.

[unrealhoang]

This is something that I learned much later on (50+ hours in), it's much easier to time with action than pause. By slot in a medium/light slash between enemy long winding/telegraphs, I can time the roll/parry much more consistent, and it's dying faster too.

[rubyist5eva]

Now that you mention it, I started doing this as well - without even really realizing it. Poking during the hold and then dodging immediately after is very effective.

[spywaregorilla]

Get behind him and you can do a full charge attack with no dodging

[ethbr0]

And I'd argue they wouldn't be as successful as they are if they weren't a rejection of something players sense in most other games, even if they don't consciously notice the systems helping them.

Kind of like the Matrix.