[oliwarner]

> Web frameworks are inferior to those in most other languages.

That's quite a statement. Go on, for most of the other languages, show me a web framework that's better than Django.

Python absolutely has deployment challenges, but the performance is Good Enough™ and the speed of modelling and maintaining and accessing databases in Django's ORM is so much better than anything else I've found. Its Admin interface too is superb for same-day turnarounds on little CRUD projects. Nothing comes close.

And I've written quite complex systems around Django. Ones that are multi-headed websites, APIs to physical hardware IO, ANPR, card readers, ID printers. Python hasn't let us down.

[innocentoldguy]

> That's quite a statement. Go on, for most of the other languages, show me a web framework that's better than Django.

I think that’s subjective, so take this with a grain of salt. I do have a different opinion though. Also, my point isn’t to argue, but to encourage consideration.

I’ve used Django and Python quite extensively in the past and I would say that, for me, Phoenix/Elixir and Ruby on Rails are both better web frameworks than Django.

The reason I feel this way is that Phoenix/Elixir, for example, has much better dependency management and tooling than Python/Django (e.g., Mix is vastly superior to Pip, in my opinion).

Also, when I was using Django in the past, even the core team suggested using a different directory layout than is generated by default. This meant that every Django application I worked on had a completely different project layout. Both Phoenix and Rails are more opinionated regarding their project layouts. Some may consider this bad, but the benefit is I can go to any Phoenix or Rails project and instantly be productive because I know where all my controllers, models, views, templates, and contexts are going to be. I also like that Phoenix is much faster, more scalable, and makes better use of hardware resources than either Python or Ruby.

I think Python and Django are excellent, but I’d place them at #3 in my top-three list of web frameworks. That’s just my opinion though.

[oliwarner]

That's fine. I disagree, but that's fine too.

What I took issue with was the suggestion that "most other languages" have a better web framework. I'd wager most other languages don't even have a web framework. And even amongst those that do, there's some real dirt out there, and much worse examples of packaging, tooling, etc. Two Python frameworks, Django and FastAPI would be in my as-objective-as-possible top 10.

It was a silly thing to say.

[innocentoldguy]

I see. I can agree with you assessment. I also agree that Django is a great framework. It's one of my top-three favorites.

[shpongled]

I am a self admitted python- and ORM-hater and I agree. Django is pretty fantastic, and I have successfully used it to spin up several complete CRUD projects in a day or two

[bb88]

If you use a DB, the DB will be the slowest aspect of a web framework, or any other kind of IO.

90% of the performance gains I've achieved are by optimizing/reducing large DB queries, or adding an index to the DB.