[throwaway894345]

I have no doubt that Australia has fewer mass shootings than the US by pretty much any reasonable metric, but we should be careful in our comparisons. First of all, definitions vary widely on what constitutes a “mass shooting”, so we should always give our definition and make sure we’re applying the same definition to both operands (notably, by most common definitions, Australia has had several mass shootings and quite a few more mass murders since 1996).

We should also adjust for known dependent variables, like population, population density, crime rates, number of guns in circulation (i.e., we would intuitively expect fewer mass shootings from a small, sparse, low-abiding country with few guns in circulation irrespective of gun laws)—Australia has only 8% of the US population and only 10% of the density—not sure about crime rates. I also suspect there were fewer guns in circulation prior to 1996, so even if officials could get the same share removed from the US market, it would likely leave more guns in circulation than in America (even adjusting for population, etc)—I also doubt Americans would be as willing to give up their guns as Australians were in ‘96, so the odds that America could get the same share of guns off the market as Australia did seems unlikely.

That said, I’ve read that Australia’s gun count has crept back up to pre-96 levels (not sure if that is per capita or not), which is interesting—potentially it suggests there’s something else going on: either it matters what type of guns are banned (e.g., semi-automatic handguns), or perhaps there’s an altogether different reason or hidden factor behind the decline in Australian mass shootings.

In any case, mass shootings is probably the wrong metric, but rather we probably want to look at number of mass murder deaths overall (presumably some people switch to stabbings or arson, but both of these are probably result in fewer fatalities). It’s also not clear to me why we fixate on mass murders/shootings rather than homicides overall—is it really worse when 10 people are killed all at once rather than 10000 people killed individually?

[renaudg]

Use any other country you like as a comparison.

The UK for example changed gun laws after a mass school shooting 26 years ago. Not a single one since.

[quantumwannabe]

Not true. There was one literally less than a year ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_shooting

Another one in 2018:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Moss_Side_shooting

And another in 2010:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

And in 2009:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massereene_Barracks_shooting

Britain has also had numerous mass stabbings, bombings, and vehicle ramming attacks.

[renaudg]

> Not true. There was one literally less than a year ago:

School mass shootings. The last one in the UK definitely was in 1996 (17 dead), after which gun control laws were tightened : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

But let's take a look at your examples :

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_shooting (2021)

6 dead.

It was the first fatal mass shooting in the UK since the Cumbria shootings of 2010. In response, the Home Office announced that it would issue updated guidelines for firearms licence applications.

>Another one in 2018: >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Moss_Side_shooting

No fatalities.

Mass shootings are rare in the UK, with the most recent previous being a spree shooting in Cumbria in 2010, and the one before a school shooting in Dunblane in 1996.

> And another in 2010: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

12 dead.

Along with the 1987 Hungerford massacre and the 1996 Dunblane school massacre, it is one of the worst criminal acts involving firearms in British history.

>And in 2009: >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massereene_Barracks_shooting

2 soldiers dead.

That's a total of 37 deaths to mass shootings in the UK in 26 years. Let's see where the US is at : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_...

202 mass shootings, 221 deaths in the first 4 months of 2022

What was your point again ?

[quantumwannabe]

First off, you didn't say "school" originally, you just said mass shooting and there have been several in the UK since the gun ban; also it doesn't matter if innocent people are killed at a school or elsewhere, what matters is that they were killed. Secondly, the "zero deaths" shooting had 12 wounded; the lack of deaths wasn't for a lack of trying and I'm sure those people would have preferred not to have been shot. Thirdly, most of those American mass shootings in the Wikipedia article aren't mass shootings in that they aren't some crazy killing random strangers, they are gang violence; you may as well include all of the UK's gang homicides then. Many of the school "mass shootings" also had no deaths. For example, Wikipedia counts this as a school shooting: "An individual who was not a student accidentally shot himself in the leg in the parking lot of Glades Central High School". No reasonable person can say that is the same as what happened in Texas, and dozens of the "school shootings" in the list are similar to the parking lot accident.

The deadliest mass shooting of all time happened in France in 2015 and the second deadliest happened in Norway in 2011 (yes, deadlier than any American mass shooting). Europe has had a large number of mass killings. Here's a PARTIAL list (since there are no activist groups compiling lists of "mass" "shootings" in Europe like there are in the US, it's difficult to find them without scanning old news articles) of SCHOOL shootings in Europe over the last twenty years (and yes it is fair to compare the US to all of Europe due to population and size; European countries are equivalent to American states (which have varying degrees of gun control)): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31515008. Additionally, there have been a lot of European mass killings that weren't targeted at schools like the Manchester Arena Bombing, Charlie Hebdo, the aforementioned Bataclan and Oslo massacres, the Nice truck attack, the various vehicle ramming attacks in London and elsewhere in Europe, and more. Your gun bans haven't prevented crazies from killing massive amounts of innocents, neither with guns nor with other methods.

[renaudg]

> First off, you didn't say "school" originally, you just said mass shooting

My original sentence :

> The UK for example changed gun laws after a mass school shooting 26 years ago. Not a single one since.

I don't know what to say if you didn't double check when I corrected you. Learn to read ? To argue honestly ?

BTW, TWENTY-ONE new mass shootings in the US since you wrote this desperately disingenuous reply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_...

[quantumwannabe]

Not a single one of those was a mass shooting by the common definition. They were all just random murders/attempted murders, which your continent has quite a lot of as well. The only difference is you don't have lobbyists who compile lists on Wikipedia.

[muzika]

Thank you for this informative reply.