[salawat]

Wrong.

If you care about security, verify your goddamn invariants.

This is not a software problem. This is a lazy programmer/software engineer problem. Electrical Engineering, or hell, any matyre engineering field understands this concept.

If you have mot read your entire codepath, you have no idea what it is you are doing.

Welcome to why my life as a QA is effing miserable. Every bit of ignorance by devs following the philosophy of "abstraction is good" is dealt with at the level of Software BoM audit.

All hail Time to Market!

[IshKebab]

> This is not a software problem. This is a lazy programmer/software engineer problem.

The old "good programmers don't write bugs" fallacy. How do so many people still think like this in 2022??

[salawat]

There is a difference between not writing bugs, and checking your invariants.

If you have not read implementation code you are dependent on, you by sefinition have not had the signal that raises that invariant violation into your consciousness.

It would be like a civil engineer building a bridge out of limestone at a thickness that would require a larger thickness of steel and just saying "to hell with it, go figure it out".

The write-only programmer is a threat to themselves and everyone around them. And to be frank, even more dangerous are those members of management who have their expectations around implementation time so skewed by this cavalier attitude toward knowing the dynamics of your stack.

You will make bugs. Crossed invariants are completely preventable though.

[KronisLV]

> If you care about security, verify your goddamn invariants.

While it would be nice to be able to do this, sadly we don't have infinite resources, lest we be okay with actually shipping software in 5-10 years instead of 1-2. I know that I would be okay with such a world, but people who pay my salary might not share that point of view. Nor do the people who would have to choose an app to use in the near future, instead of waiting for a decade to do so.

> This is not a software problem. This is a lazy programmer/software engineer problem. Electrical Engineering, or hell, any matyre engineering field understands this concept.

The thing is, that the majority of the development out there is like the Wild West. If my code throws a NullPointerException or a NullReferenceException, then someone is going to be mildly annoyed and it might result in a Jira issue to fix. Code failing in a variety of ways is almost considered normal in some respects, outside of specific (expensive) contexts, where correctness matters a lot.

Admittedly, even in programming there are fields where the stakes are higher, though writing code for planes (as an example) is wildly different than what 90% of people out there would call "programming". Personally, I'd like 100% test coverage (lines, code branches, everything), but outside of these high stakes environments it would be wasteful to do so.

> If you have mot read your entire codepath, you have no idea what it is you are doing.

For many out there, this is pretty much impossible to do in a meaningful way. Let's use something like the Spring framework, a popular option in Java for web dev, a stack that has a rather high level of abstraction. In it, the actual code path that you're dealing with would involve your application code, the framework code (which is likely many times longer than your actual application, uses reflection and other complex mechanisms, overall being truly Eldritch at times), any integrated libraries, as well as the JVM and some other code on your actual system, that interfaces with the JVM.

Even if you toss out Java from the stack, the actual hot code path in any non-trivial piece of software will be pretty difficult to reason about, due to different types of linking, different external package versions etc. Unless you feel okay with very, very slowly stepping through everything with a debugger, which probably still won't give you too good of an idea of what's actually happening and what should have happened.

Though maybe traversing 20 layers of abstraction in Spring and coming out of that debugging session more confused than you were than when you entered it is just a Java/Spring thing, who knows.

> Welcome to why my life as a QA is effing miserable. Every bit of ignorance by devs following the philosophy of "abstraction is good" is dealt with at the level of Software BoM audit.

I think there's plenty of misery to be had all around. For a humorous take at the state of things, have a look at this article: https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks

> All hail Time to Market!

All hail being able to pay rent by delivering sub-optimal software to meet ever changing business demands in an environment where nobody wants to pay for perfect software. That's simply the world we live in, take it or leave it (e.g. pursue whichever environment feels better to you, within the bounds of your opportunities in life).

[salawat]

And thus we come back to the age old quandry. The implicit act of economic violence tucked away into our current society.

I have capital, you don't, do what I want, or starve.

It always comes back to violence.

This is why we waste so much time reinventing things and white labelling, and subjecting other professions to the most ungodly tooling. We mass-produce suffering. We engineer it into the product in the form of lack of care under the guide of "we're innovating guyz".

[KronisLV]

Ehh, that's a somewhat grim view, though I doubt I can offer many valuable points about the wider nature of capitalism as a whole.

That said, what I can say is that there definitely is a wide spectrum of different circumstances that people are dealing with and therefore the level of care that certain things will get will also vary.

For example, would it be cool to spend 2 decades working on the perfect GUI framework that'd be tested, dependable, performant and would also have exceedingly good usability? Sure. Is that going to happen in our current world? Perhaps not.

But hey, starting out with a bit of pushback and selling the concept of TDD or quality gates is a start as well, or even having proper tests for all of the important business logic, whilst willingly ignoring (putting off) the things that are just infeasible.