[DANK_YACHT]

People have definitely been harmed by crypto. I was pointing out that pyramid and ponzi schemes harm people by definition. There is no mathematical way for them to benefit a majority of participants. That doesn't necessarily hold for crypto.

[the_gastropod]

How not? The problem with pyramid schemes, gambling, ponzi schemes, and cryptocurrencies is: they're zero-sum games (or worse). As you say, there is no mathematical way for most people to benefit from cryptocurrencies.

[DANK_YACHT]

Cryptocurrencies are not zero-sum due to the ability to create money via lending. E.g. if I make a currency with 100 tokens, I can lend them to you for a year at a 10% interest rate. Even though there are only 100 coins in existence, I’ve created an asset worth 110 coins. This is how money gets created in a fiat system created money as well. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation

[the_gastropod]

The reason money creation is valuable in fiat currencies is because those are circular economies: the person taking on debt is presumably producing something of value, and able to pay back the interest.

Crypto is not a circular economy. It's a speculative investment whose expected return is always negative.

[DANK_YACHT]

How is taking a crypto loan and using it to produce something "of value" in the U.S. different than someone taking a USD loan and using it to produce something of value in Turkey?

[the_gastropod]

Let me be more clear: the value in money creation is the loan itself. Money creation in USD does not make the USD more valuable. It makes the economic output of the economic system (GDP) more valuable.

The point remains: someone spending $USD to acquire $<Crypto> should expect to lose $USD when they invariably want to sell their tokens for $USD later. Casino chips are also a negative-sum game, even though a loan shark may loan you some for interest.

[DANK_YACHT]

Casino chips are a good example. It's the casino that is zero-sum, not the chips themselves. People don't do business in casino chips because of logistic and liquidity issues. If you could buy casino chips digitally from anywhere in the world, at any time, with no counter party risk, and write contracts against them, then I bet a lot of people would do so.