[landa]

If you really believe it doesn't have "any value at all" then I invite you to sell it short. That's a free $30,000. The nice thing about markets is that you can express your opinion, and that market opinions without corresponding positions can be ignored.

[hn_throwaway_99]

The fact that I've seen many, many rejoinders to "crypto has no long term value" in the "well, just short it then" vein makes me think these talking points must be what the cool kids on r/Bitcoin or somewhere are spewing.

I don't necessarily believe all crypto is going to zero, but for Bitcoin specifically I believe (a) that proof of work is definitely unsustainable as the market cap grows and (b) given the power of miners in the BTC protocol, I have a difficult time believing they'll ever transition off PoW (e.g. compared to what ETH has done).

But, of course, shorting an asset requires conviction not just that its value is going down, but when. I would easily bet that within some decent extended time period, say 15 years, that the value of BTC will be zero or near zero. I am unaware how to short an asset feasibly over that long of a time period.

[landa]

> cool kids on r/Bitcoin

I don't use Reddit or any other social networks. This is the only site I post anything on. My suggestion to put a trade on instead of just saying stupid things on the Internet comes from institutional trading culture.

Anyone can say anything. Almost nobody backs it up with money.

[over_bridge]

There's a difference between having a price and having value. I could order a truck load of glitter and dump it on my lawn. It has no value to anyone but it still cost me money to obtain it.

It's questionable that Bitcoin has any value but there is enough money sunk into that ecosystem and propping it up that it's unlikely to ever fall away completely. There are billionaires' egos at stake here!

[Nursie]

> I invite you to sell it short

The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. Shorting for any decent stretch of time is not free, and you more or less have to do it on one of the many rigged casinos operating in the crypto space. It's a fool's game.

[jimmydorry]

Banks and large investment firms are more than happy to create exotic instruments. With enough money at stake, you can definitely find an institution willing to take the other side of a bet against crypto (specifically BTC or ETH).

If you want proof, refer to what happened in the lead-up to the 2008 Sub-Prime Mortgage crisis (or check out the movie The Big Short if you want somewhere to begin).

[MrMan]

there are BTC futures on CME, but the margin requirements are high because CME knows BTC is garbage.

[1270018080]

It doesn't have any value at all, but the market can stay irrational longer than I can stay solvent.

[quickthrower2]

Also the counterparty risk of shorting bitcoin

[cycrutchfield]

Also prices are manipulated like crazy to liquidate big bets like that