[ironlake]

All blockchain is a ponzi scheme. Reasons to give your money to the blockchain: currency of the future (Bitcoin) -> trustless computing (Ethereum Classic) -> trustless computing with that one bug fix (Ethereum) -> store of value (Bitcoin, Tether, etc...) -> digital assets that you really own and we ignore copyright and existing laws that might cover this subject (NFT's) -> vague web3 promises.

Next year it will be something else, or maybe they will circle back to the beginning (Future of currency! Fundamentals!), but the only reason anyone really buys in is because they believe they will make money.

A16Z has no problem running a ponzi scheme. If blockchain were actually useful, why wouldn't they just pour all that money into Bitcoin?

[web4]

there is no need to "invest" in ethereum in order to use it. if you wish to send 1000 USDC to a friend in another country, you can buy that amount, send it to them, and then exit the ecosystem entirely.

if you want to buy an artist's work to support them, you can purchase some ETH, purchase the NFT, or just send them the ETH if you'd rather, and then hold no more ETH than you need to pay gas fees.

the idea that crypto requires constant investment is something that is pushed by laser eye btc bros but is not how these networks will be used in future.

[EricMausler]

Isn't this exactly why some people are buying into it now?

Entering and exiting the ecosystem to fulfill a trade takes time, and during that time you hold crypto of a certain value

An increase of concurrent trades means the value of the currency goes up if the amount of currency being used for trades remains the same.

A commitment to HODL means a removal of currency from the trading pool.

So by shrinking the trading pool and increasing the trading volume of people entering and exiting the pool in short time frames, the value of the currency increases.

Trying to cash out a large wallet would increase the trading pool and decrease the price.

You may not ever be able to actualize the full potential of what your wallet says.. but you can easily get more out of than you put in without it being a ponzi scheme.

You are providing capital backing for other people to enter and exit the ecosystem, which has value.

When trade volume increases, you can sell some of your wallet to cover the trade volume and keep price stable. If you don't, then the person who entered and exited the market during the increase will get more value out then they put in (less gas and fees)

No one needs to be left holding the bag unless trade volume decreases to 0. And there is no need for trade volume to decrease to 0 if people are aware of the currency and have access to exchanges to be able to quickly enter and exit the ecosystem

[web4]

have you ever looked at USDC and ETH order books on CEX or DEX? they are handling billions of dollars per day. unless your wallet is holding hundreds of millions of dollars in crypto you can make orders on these platforms without making a dent.

your 1000 USDC transfer may have some minute effect like a single drop of water in the ocean.

in reality you but some ETH to cover the transaction, then spend/burn it in order to fill the trade. maybe later your friend will have to pay more or less or the same than you did in absolute USD terms to cover gas costs to exchange the USDC for another asset depending on the future market conditions. and these are risks both parties should aware of , the ledger is not free but the take-rate and fees are notably different than VISA and PayPal

[EricMausler]

I think we agree?

If they are handling billions in trades per day that means trade volume is up high.

A small personal wallet may not matter, but the combined value of all wallets not involved in those trades does matter.

Effectively, by holding I am saying "the ratio of trade volume to available currency is going to improve the value of the currency over time"

I am not saying "I will be able to find some idiot to buy my crypto for more than I paid for it as part of a ponzi scheme"

[web4]

ah yes then we agree. especially because each transaction burns ETH thus reducing supply and making token more scarce.

tho I do not think it will always translate to higher market price and valuation in future since the price is determined by a range of factors that are impossible to predict like bugs, stagnation, quantum crypto cracking or just global market fluctuations. this is where I say it need not be seen as a pure investment. market price of ETH might be the same in 1 or 10 years as it is today and network will still have created utility and value all that time for those that did not view the base token as a pure investment.

[katdork]

This seems like a quite disingenuous set of statements.

By using the ecosystem, whether through purchasing ETH, NFTs, so on, you're investing into the ecosystem.

You're inflating the amount of transactions that occur, you're appearing as a user of the ecosystem.

It's not so much constant investment so as much as by using it, you're participating in the scam, you're the guy holding the bag at the end or effectively keeping prices inflated for worthless tokens by purchasing them at the amount they're "said" to be worth.

[web4]

take USDC: you purchase it on CEX or DEX, and transfer to your friend in another country who does not have a US dollar bank account but may have a custodial or non custodial ETH address to receive crypto. they can choose to hold or sell or exchange it for any other asset in the network.

your “investment” in the USD or ETH required for fees is like the fees paid to PayPal or Wise during a transaction. paying these fees doesn’t mean you are now a PayPal investor or have any stake in whether their corporation does well.

if this is all a scam to you then there is not much I can do to change your mind. saying crypto as a whole is a scam is equally as silly as saying the stock market as a whole is a scam. they are both financial instruments at this point with different risks.

edit: the point of my post is to say that you ETH is not about buying the token with expectation that it will go to moon. you can just buy it like you would tokens in an arcade - you use the tokens for fees in transactions in order to accomplish whatever utility the chain provides, maybe with the vast majority of your holdings and interactions in USD pegged assets with no expectation they will moon.