[Peach_blue]

How come most people say software devs are in demand and then there is this comment saying he receives 4000+ applications on a job and nobody in Europe should consider this career?

Can perspectives on reality be this far apart, or is he trolling?

[bitexploder]

They almost always mean “talented/experienced” people are in demand. Not some random who did a bootcamp and watched a few YT videos and can barely copy and paste from stack overflow.

[mouzogu]

Issue is that many jobs are getting 100s of applicants, and even if you're "talented" you can easily still get lost in the system.

That's without considering the related huge levels of gatekeeping now happening in hiring. Some experienced people are just too jaded to deal with it.

[bin_bash]

If you actually are talented, and reasonably right for the role: figure out who the hiring manager is and message them on LinkedIn. You don't have to make sure it's the right HM, as long as you're close they'll point you in the right direction.

I've done this many times (before working in big tech) and I have always received a response. There is only 1 company that I've failed to get through for at least some kind of a screen: MSFT. They seem to want nothing to do with me.

[bluGill]

I is frustrating from our side too. My boss just sent me a half dozen resumes: they all look the same to me: someone fresh out of a CS degree looking for a job (this is an entry level position so that is what we want). I really don't want to interview 6 people for one position, so who do we call in?

[joebob42]

The "fair" and probably also reasonable imo thing to do is just pick randomly if you have a bunch of equally good people and can't interview them all.

Or make them do leetcode stuff, I think this situation is basically what that whole part of the process is for.

[armitron]

Skilled developers are in demand, but the market is _flooded_ not only with low-barrier-to-entry applicants that can't even do the basics but also beginner programmers with constructed work histories that can masquerade a lot better and as a result require more time to see through and filter. This state of affairs is also rapidly getting worse..

If someone entering the field now has nothing (e.g. CS degree from a good university, high-quality projects), to help him raise above this noise, it's a fool's gamble.

[tarentel]

This has been happening to me so much lately. Half the applicants I receive look great on paper and then I realize their only "work" experience are a bunch of "companies" they made up for some side projects. The other half of the people I am not even sure why they are applying as they literally have no idea how to code. I can't imagine what the recruiters are receiving if I am getting the filtered version.

[Peach_blue]

Thanks for that nuanced insight.

I'm currently trying out whether frontend development could be for me in my mid thirties. I knew that bootcamp marketing and YouTubers were exaggerating when it came to the jobs and their requirements. But I didn't think there would be so much 'noise' indeed.

I guess that means to only go through with it if you are really, really good and actually enjoy doing it. Not because it promises money and job stability.

[armitron]

I'm in my early 50s with a career spanning three decades, worked in fintech, worked in various FAANGs, lived in SV for close to 10 years, lived in NYC for half as long, now semi-retired.

For someone young (early to mid 20s), I agree with what you wrote. Being really, really good and actually enjoying doing it, should be a must.

For someone of your age or older, I see a lot more risk. If you start from zero, it will take you at least 5 years to build up ammunition (a degree from a good university and some demonstrable experience) that's going to open the doors that you need open and give you a shot at passing the entrance tests. And then the "being really, really good" part comes in except you're now 5 years older facing fierce competition and there's no guarantee that you will succeed (who knows what the market will be in 5-10 years, the trajectory doesn't look promising).

Personally, I wouldn't do it. The skills needed to offset the risk are hard to acquire in the timespans we're talking about, unless you're truly exceptional. But offseting the risk for me means living in the US and working at one of the FAANGs (job security and very high total compensation). Others see it differently.

[Peach_blue]

I appreciate your comment and the honesty.

Funny thing is, I considered coding because I didn't see my natural talent as a copywriter (not in english) to be recession proof enough. Then everyone talked about how coders are in such demand etc.

I never stopped to think that tech is an industry like any other. And that when the economy tanks all those start-ups and companies who are willing to gamble on an inexperienced junior dev will behave very differently.

Doesn't speak for my problem solving skills, actually. Lol.

I will surely re-evaluate my motivations.

[py_or_dy]

Stuff is screwed up. I applied at over 80 companies last year, got interviews with about 60 of them, did about 110 individual phone screens/interviews. Got no offers. It seems the management paradigm right now for small shops or startups is to dedicate $350k or so per year for developer salaries. A single principle or staff engineer is hired. Takes $150k per year. And they in turn try to shove 4 juniors into the remaining $200k. I'm 40 years old with no lead experience and I'm not a junior. So I fit none of these roles.

[pc86]

Have you been a developer the whole time? ~16-18 YOE with no lead experience could be [incorrectly] taken as a red flag.

I will say we've been trying to hire two seniors for the better part of 6 months and most of the people we end up on the phone with either end up going somewhere (presumably for more $ but it's rare to get a reason), or they do so poorly on the technical screen it makes you wonder if they just used someone else's resume. Nothing in between the two - I've been in my current EM role for probably 3 months, have done maybe 20-25 interviews, and we've extended 4 offers. One accepted then took a different job two days before his start date, one accepted, two declined.

[py_or_dy]

I've been doing some form of development since the age of 28. I look young for my age so I could probably pass for 35. I've made sure nothing giving my true age away is online or on my resume. I think the biggest issue is I have mostly been in the Perl ecosystem and most of those companies are self hosted, not using docker, etc. I do have requirements of only being remote, this worked fine in the perl world. But those jobs are mostly non-existent now and plus I was tired of the mindset that perl software stacks seem to harbor (never updating software, why use a framework when you can cowboy code your own, etc). Spent 2 years playing around with Django, figured it would be an easy transition. Hard to say why I don't get hired. I even did 7 interviews with one company. Several occasions I even celebrated early (buying stuff I didn't need with my dwindling savings account, going out to eat at fancy places with the family, etc) because I had 2 or 3 interviews ongoing and they were going so good and I was such a good match that I just knew I'd get an offer from one. But no... Slowly went from asking $130k per year to $120k, $110k, $90k.. That didn't help, the companies got crappier, the interviews just got longer and harder (the opposite of what I was wanting because I was so burned out by this time). Had a couple of perl companies reach out to me, but they are old legacy code and part time 1099. I can barely make myself put in over 15 hours combined per week with them though. Just feels like I am poisoning myself by going with them and want to do more interviewing but then the voice telling me it is pointless comes back so I just end up sitting in my home office for 12+ hours a day staring out the window.

[eatonphil]

I'm sorry to hear about your experience! It's really shitty to have applied so many times in a year and gotten nowhere. I can't help you out but for to encourage you that interviewing is always a numbers game. I find it depressing and have to apply to tons of companies and I'm not your age. My only trick is to take breaks when I need them and keep trying.

[soneca]

What kind of companies did you apply to?

I'll share my personal experience, in case it helps. I only apply to small startups (less than 50 employees, but I usually get hired in places with <10 people). These have much more straightforward and short hiring processes. I find those companies solely from HN Who is Hiring thread or AngelList. I never got anything from a job post on Linkedin (much less Indeed and etc). I am a frontend developer, but I do see a lot of Python positions.

If you filter for companies based in the US only, the pay is pretty good.

There is a lot of luck involved in getting hired (especially after going through an interview, since from there the process is very subjective). It sucks, but you just have to keep trying. One day you will be the lucky one. Good luck!

[passingmagic]

Is the TC at these small companies (particularly taking into account the risk of any stock options) comparable to the TC at Big Tech (notwithstanding the recent sell-off on Wall Street)?

Or do you give up some TC for the other benefits of working at these small startups?

[soneca]

No, much less TC than FAANG. I earn low six figures and value my stock options at zero. So more than any other software development job in the world.

[triyambakam]

Are you able to share where you're hiring?

[pc86]

I don't think it violates any rules here, so sure. The company is called ServicePower, we run a handful of apps in the field service, insurance, and warranty industries. My teams are NodeJS, AWS, Kafka, but there are other teams (some with open recs as well) that do C++ or Java if that's more your thing. All teams are remote-first and all teams are US or UK. I added my email to my profile if you (or anyone else) is interested in discussing more.

[bredren]

Hey—I saw some of your past comments on your interviewing experience. Have you contributed to any open source projects? It can be helpful as a reference point in interviewing.

If you want to drop me an email, the least I can do is offer some feedback on your resume / online profile(s).

[michaelbrave]

It's been my life experience that none of what you hear is "in demand" actually is, what it instead translates to is "not willing to pay or hire or train enough".

My friends who work in nursing tell me it's not that there isn't a talent pool, it's that they are short staffed due to hiring limitations more than lack of interest, which then feels like being short staffed because everyone is putting in more time, which makes the environment suck, which does make people quit, especially exaserbated with covid and conspiracy theorists treating them poorly. But until the underlying issues are solved, it's not a real shortage as there are qualified people looking for work but not being hired.

Teacher shortage is similar, not willing to pay them enough(even when school funding is high, teacher pay stays low), and the amount of bullshit they have to put up with seems to go up every year, which is unrelated to amount of people with teaching credentials.

Programming has a similar problem, every company wants senior roles but very few are willing to train, so it's a bottleneck more than a shortage.

[ldayley]

This comment proves the author’s thesis, which is “The culture is ageist so you probably won’t stand out using the same skills as the newer devs or companies. Find an obscure, unsexy, perhaps almost obsolete niche and specialize because the kids or mid-career engineers don’t even bother with those jobs.”

Now if only there was a way to monetize a COBOL or ABAP channel on Youtube, hmmm…

*Edited for clarity

[habibur]

Guess developers are in high demand in US/UK. And not at all in rest of the world. Reading the comments on the original post, I assume this picture.

[ChuckNorris89]

>he receives 4000+ applications on a job and nobody in Europe should consider this career

Why would you assume he's trolling? In some EU countries the market is insanely competitive due to great free schools churning out coders like crazy due to the tech hype, plus tons of skilled immigrants from developing nations trying to break into the market, so companies are very picky since they get bombarded with applications, so people with little experience or failing the culture fit or whatever arbitrary metrics are used, can easily fall through the cracks and not find a job despite being talented.

The high demand you hear is true, but only for experienced seniors and, since nobody wants to take in juniors and train them this creates a bottleneck of artificial scarcity despite the high supply of less experienced devs.

[kharak]

I have a hard time believing that comment. I know people who graduated recently with a software developer degree. Some in their late 20ties and the degree is not from a university. They got instant job offers. If you have a degree and can actually write code, you're in.

[ChuckNorris89]

Maybe in hot markets like US or UK, but some of EU is pretty bleak.

[kharak]

Parts of the EU maybe, my perspective is mostly limited to Germany and Switzerland.

[lmc]

> Behind your “software development job” are 100 Chinese and Indian applicants lined up and they are willed to do your job it for a handful of rice.

A troll, or very isolated individual (perhaps both).

[tluyben2]

> handful of rice

Maybe 20 years ago.

[lordnacho]

Your inbox can literally have that many applications in it, but by far most of them are junk. A lot of them seem like they're sent to intentionally not get seen, like they're part of some requirement to apply for jobs or something like that, eg people with no appropriate skill listed, or anything at all similar to what was advertised.

Then there's also complete dreamers. I hear football clubs often get guys who've played Champ Manager sending in an application on a whim.