[chetanbhasin]

Reusable bags for deliver are stupid if they don't get collected back into the system. Otherwise, you're just making more and more reusable containers that are effectively single-use because, well, you're not reusing them.

While I understand that it makes sense to ban plastic bags, I don't believe banning paper bags has nearly any positive impact on the environment.

[panick21_]

At least where I live the delivery guy takes the paper bags back and also takes the aluminum cold bags. But that is Switzerland.

[mindslight]

It's almost like there is a severe logical flaw in the common USian approach of just banning singular things, and then hoping that "the market" will fill in a constructive solution.

[panick21_]

In my case it is 'the market'. Its a private company and there is no mandate not to use plastic or do any of the things they do.

[mindslight]

Still, that's not solely "the market". The values of the person managing the company and the perceived values of their customers (societal values) have informed that decision.

If it's true that there really are no disposable bag regulations in Switzerland, then the much different outcome under the similar regulations also supports my point. If New Jersey thinks it has a problem where bags need to be reused more, then it would make sense to spell that out in law and nudge towards the overall desired solution (more reuse) rather than simply banning "disposable" (ie cheaply made) bags and hoping that people will automatically reuse more resource-costly ones.

[panick21_]

> The values of the person managing the company and the perceived values of their customers (societal values) have informed that decision.

That is literally what 'the market' always means.

[bko]

It's obvious that this law is not good for the environment, consumers or grocers and is deeply unpopular. Which begs the question, where are these laws coming from? They don't even bother making simple exceptions for practicality. It's terrifying not knowing the underlying forces that are causing such a perversion to democracy.

[Volundr]

> It's obvious that this law is not good for the environment, consumers or grocers and is deeply unpopular.

It's not obvious to me. The article certainly attempted to make the claim, but the evidence was rough. Heck the evidence that most people find it inconvenient what that "most people don't have reusable bags with them all the time". Neither do I, yet somehow have been using them for years without issue.

> It's terrifying not knowing the underlying forces that are causing such a perversion to democracy.

Could it be that that your original thesis is wrong and it's not deeply unpopular, and not "perversion of democracy" at all?

[hirundo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling

[bko]

Who are you signaling to? People who care for the environment likely know how stupid it is that they have to spend a few extra bucks when they forget their bags and have to buy thick plastic bags they'll throw away. I've never met anyone in real life that thinks this is a good idea, regardless of their politics.

[moate]

Hello, it's me, the person you've never met in real life! I'm real, and I live in New Jersey, and I'm super in favor of this law (paper bag warts and all)

You're right, in the short term a law banning plastic single use bags likely results in an increase in the number of multi-use bags people buy because they forgot. How long do you expect this cycle to go on for? I'm going to imagine it's "a few months" for most people, before you start leaving a couple bags in the back seat of your car. People are pretty clever and adaptable. It's akin to saying that we need to ban new calendar years because everyone writes the old calendar year for a few days in January. It seems pretty reasonable that people can and will, broadly speaking, remember their shopping bags.

The bottom line is that the tragedy of the commons is in full effect when it comes to plastic generally, and plastic bags specifically. We got addicted to them, and they're terrible. I'm going to write this one more time: We got addicted to them and they're terrible. Short term financial gains for long term environmental pains. We should have never switched from paper bags, but plastic solved a lot of problems, and nobody seemed to notice or care about the waste issue. This law itself may not be "fixing" the issue entirely, but it's forcing consumer change and that pain alone might helpful in solving the issues long term by forcing people to think about the topic.

[ryathal]

The problem is a lack of education more than anything. People simply believe that plastic = bad, despite the fact plastic bags should probably be about the last plastic thing banned. Plastic bags take a miniscule amount of energy to make and can be thrown away and captured in a landfill indefinitely after that. Now we get varying levels of "reusable" bags that cost more economically and environmentally and the break even point is basically non existent. "A few months" of forgetting bags means the average person likely consumed more energy in reusable bags that weren't re-used than years of plastic bags. Plastic bag bans are spending dollars to save pennies, most of these laws really just make people feel better rather than provide actual benefits.

Want to save the environment? lets focus on electrifying power tools and standardizing batteries so there is less gas used and e-waste. Let's encourage insulating old buildings. We should reward reduced packaging, more bulk purchase options. Doors should be required on coolers in grocery stores. Require greywater systems in new or renovated buildings. Mandate usage of native plant species for lawns/green areas. limit dilution of water based products.

[kcplate]

> We should have never switched from paper bags

I was around back then, and I seem to recall the switch was partially driven by environmentalist concerns due to deforestation.

[throwaway0a5e]

People who care for the environment enough to know how this stuff works are a drop in the bucket compared to the number of mostly uninterested people who wanna look like they care or think they care (because it's fashionable to do so) and can be hoodwinked into thinking that banning paper or plastic bags is anything but a feel-good measure targeted at getting their votes.