[pjmlp]

Unless we are talking about something like Z80, 6502, PIC, AVR and similar low end CPUs, which hardly full support even C89, all modern CPUs have C++ compilers available.

More often than not, it is a matter of not wanting to use C++ than it not being available.

[scoutt]

On most embedded systems you cannot include std. You don't have a decent memory allocator. Bad use of templates will consume all of your flash space (code duplication).

Yes, it can work for simple Arduino sketches, and I won't say that there are not complex embedded projects in C++.

But... why should I want to use C++?

For one, I use a small subset, like it's C with classes. I like function overloading and default argument values, initializing default values for some structs, not having to type typedef struct, the fact that for a time I could declare variables mid-function and using literal bool, true, false, etc.

But full-blown C++ on embedded (MCU)? I think I'll pass.

[pjmlp]

You cannot also use stdio and most stdlib, so what?

You would want to use C++ for stronger type safety, proper enumerations, templates instead of undebuggable macros, namespaces,....

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31406942

"CppCon 2016: Jason Turner “Rich Code for Tiny Computers: A Simple Commodore 64 Game in C++17”"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBkNBP00wJE

MCUs also don't support full-blown C, and it isn't a show stopper to keep advocating it, so why should it be for a language with better safety options, even with constraints.

[scoutt]

> You cannot also use stdio and most stdlib, so what?

You can still use a subset of stdio and stdlib. Newlib also provides hooks you can use to implement fopen and the like, if you want.

> better safety options

Safety is not always the utmost priority. At least, not that kind of safety. It seems people forget this concept from time to time.

> templates instead of undebuggable macros

This is if you use complex macros, which is not always the case. I've been doing embedded for 20 years and I rarely (very rarely) find problems with macros.

But you know what's undebuggable on embedded? Complex inheritance, which sooner or later you'll hit with OOP.

For a system in which you don't have a screen, or logs, or any kind of output, that is usually not in your table, and you have to study failures by telling someone to look at an LED, or by guessing what could have gone wrong, you have to keep your system simple.

Add templates to the mix and good luck opening the project six months later, when a customer calls with a problem.

Edit: But again, used with caution, C++ can be used in embedded, at least the way I use it, as explained before.

[pjmlp]

The same subsets are available in C++ as well, with stronger type checking and RAII for closing those handles.

Yeah, safety and IoT unfortunately aren't something that go together.

Using C++ doesn't require OOP all over the place, nor crazy template metaprogramming.

The same reason you give for using macros.

[scoutt]

> RAII

C++ is used mostly with exceptions disabled on embedded, so failing constructors are a PITA. You have to keep track of valid states with a bool. Now every function entry has:

    if (!m_bValid)
        return;

I hate it.

> Yeah, safety and IoT unfortunately aren't something that go together.

Don't forget that IoT is just a minuscule fraction of embedded. Not everything is connected online or requires safety as top priority.

> Using C++ doesn't require OOP all over the place, nor crazy template metaprogramming.

So we agree. But I think you should be considering the possibility that there might be something going on between you and C, and that it could be possible that not every C developer out there is out of their mind (considering the quantity of past, present and future C projects).

Make peace with C, because the world runs on C and we'll be long gone by the time C will be replaced by something else :)

[OskarS]

Yeah, checking return codes is a thing you NEVER have to do in C...

The "exceptions are evil, but without exceptions you can't fail a constructor!" is a really irritating canard when it comes to C++. First off all, the terribleness of exceptions is way overhyped, but even if you do want to avoid them, this is not a problem: just use a factory function instead of a constructor and return a `std::optional` (or a default-constructed value and an error code if you want to avoid `std::optional` for some weird reason).

I like pure C a lot and it definitely has a place in areas like embedded. But this kind reflexive disdain for C++ using uninformed arguments is really tiresome. C++ is fine.

[pjmlp]

In the history of C++, RAII predates exceptions by several years.

When I got introduced to C++, via Turbo C++ 1.0 for MS-DOS in 1993, I decided that there was hardly a reason to use C other than being forced to use it by external reasons.

Thankfully there are plenty of places that have moved beyond running on C. :)

[lelanthran]

> More often than not, it is a matter of not wanting to use C++ than it not being available.

That's perfectly valid. I reach for C when I need to write fairly small programs. When C does not fill my needs anymore, I don't reach for C++. There are better high-level languages.

C++ is not a replacement for C. When one of the worlds foremost experts on C++ complains that the language is too complex to understand[1], passing on C++ is a reasonable position.

[1] https://steven.brokaw.org/posts/scott-meyers-cant-remember-c...

[pjmlp]

Same critic can be applied to any language of the same age as C++.

Try to do a pub quizz about a begginiers friendly language like Ruby or Python, that spans over all their versions.

[Tozen]

I agree with you. I'm a bit tired of C++ being imposed on those that rather just use C or as if C users can't turn to any other options besides C++. To include that C interop has become a thing for many newer programming languages now.

By the way, the D language (which has been with us for a while) has long positioned itself as a viable alternative to C++.

[dnet]

Why do you mention AVR? AVR-GCC has C++ support, that's what made the original Arduino (before they switched to ARM) approachable to beginners.

[lelanthran]

> AVR-GCC has C++ support

It's a very restricted subset of C++ that has almost no advantages over plain C, and some number of disadvantages.

[pjmlp]

- templates instead of macros

- constexpr instead of macros

- if constexpr instead of macros

- stronger type checking

- type inference

- strong type enumerations

- namespacing instead of pre-historic naming prefixes

- classes as means to enforce type invariants

I see some advantages.

[pjmlp]

List of typical 8 bit CPUs, and I was thinking only about commercial compilers.