[_joel]

Shoudn't a `terraform plan` tell you that? If not then the state of the infra vs what's in the terraform state is different. I've had issues with version changes in the past and needing to update state files and all that malarky.

[c7DJTLrn]

No, that's kind of my point. Terraform looks sexy and declarative on the surface but it's really just turning HCL into cloud API calls where the actual logic happens. Once you've got a few hundred lines the wheels start falling off. If it were truly declarative it wouldn't need to store what it knows about the existing infrastructure in a tfstate file.

Tform started off as a cool idea with good principles and over time has morphed into a shitty scripting language for managing multi cloud infra without clickops.

[mdaniel]

I'll do you one better: it's turning HCL into *an opaque golang intermediary*[1] of cloud API calls

It's like a game of telephone were every new participant in the chain is one more place to have "let me help you" turn into "what the hell was that?"

1 = and that's not even getting into the tire fire of the providers being either some Internet rando or an already overloaded team trying to have PRs make it through and out to release. I believe the the recent "we're not reviewing PRs anymore, exhausted" was just scoped to the hashicorp/terraform repo specifically, but it could very easily also apply to every code-gen shim that sits between TF and the underlying cloud SDK