[kabuks]

Depends on your definition of civilized.

Having been born and raised in the middle east (Egypt), I can assure you that by many definitions of 'civilized' we fare really well compared to the US.

True, there isn't separation of religion and state, and that leads to much 'uncivilized' behavior, and a wacky sense of law.

On the other hands, we don't have nearly the same rates of murder, rape, theft that we have here in the States. And we don't put one out of every 300 people in prison.

Our elderly mostly die surrounded by family and friends in their homes, and very very very few people sleep on the streets.

Our health care system is much poorer, and much more primitive than the US system, but nobody gets turned away because of 'pre-existing' conditions or lack of funds.

In most of the Country, if you stop someone and ask for directions, they'll invite you to their home for a meal and be serious about it. Even though they make less than a .50 cents a day.

So yeah, maybe broaden your idea of what 'civilized' looks like and you won't need to isolate so much.

p.s. We cook a yummy Egyptian dinner once a month for friends, ping me and come over next Monday for civilized discourse over foul and falafel

[tkahn6]

I suspect if you were a Copt you'd have a much different perspective.

[potatolicious]

I suspect if you were black in America you'd have a much different perspective. Or Mexican.

There are marginalized, abused groups everywhere. The West fares no better, though it does make it look cleaner (e.g., rampant discrimination is codified by law instead of remaining unwritten).

[tkahn6]

I seriously doubt blacks and Hispanics in America have to worry about being blown up as they leave their places of worship. Violence and malice towards Copts in Egypt is on an entirely different plane than racism experienced by minorities in the West. These moral equivalences grow tired.

[potatolicious]

I'll concede the point re: on a different plane.

That said, I still believe the claim that the Middle East is "uncivilized" (with the implication that the West is), is awfully arrogant - as if the NATO powers haven't all done far worse, just not as visibly, and far from home.

Reading some of the posts in this thread you'd swear that the mark of a civilized people is how well they can hide their acts of brutal violence, as opposed to simply how much brutal violence they commit.

[kabuks]

I am a Copt

[jellicle]

Yeah, I had some questions about civilization in Egypt. Is Egypt assassinating thousands of people worldwide with anti-tank missiles fired from unmanned aircraft, on a daily basis?

Because if not, then yes I'd say you compare quite well to the U.S.

[bluekeybox]

Civilized =/= morally good. It's not what you do, it's how you do it.

[nobody314159]

That's a bit unfair.

You have to give them a chance, they only just got democracy - it takes a while to build up a military-industrial complex.