[TameAntelope]

I wish we had a better phrase than "pyramid scheme", because IMO anything that's a "scheme" has people who know better at one end, and I really don't think there's anyone involved in crypto that is deliberately "winning". What's a phrase for when everyone is getting scammed, and not by any one person, but by an idea? Where there are no winners, only lucky and unlucky.

Pyramid trap? Pyramid quagmire? IDK, but "scheme" implies something I don't think is there - control.

[ogogmad]

Speculative bubble. Or just bubble.

People buy it because they expect the price to go up. The price goes up so more people buy it expecting further gains. The fundamentals arguably don't justify such a high price, and so you have a speculative bubble. Eventually, the bubble will pop and most investors will lose money.

I suspect BTC is a bubble because everything it does can be done better by other things. I also suspect that Lightning is fundamentally insecure. If you analyse the true intentions of the people who use it, there's no sober purpose; they just want it because they expect the price to go up. It's not about helping the developing world; because if it was, then there are better but more boring ways of doing it. Hence, it's a bubble built from speculation.

[wongarsu]

I agree that BTC has little inherent value, it hasn't turned out all that useful. Even if you believe the advantages of crypto are worth all the disadvantages there are blockchains that are much better.

But similar things can be said about many things, and some commodities are able to sustain their bubbles for decades or centuries. Gold is going strong for millennia, with a price far exceeding its practical value. BTC probably won't last that long, but unless it's disrupted by legislation it might still have decades left in it.

[eric_cc]

> I agree that BTC has little inherent value

The bitcoin network is extremely valuable. Trustless money is important in a world where all other currencies are created, controlled, and manipulated by governments. We know humans are prone to make poor choices, commit crimes, etc. Especially governments. Why do we allow them to create money when and how they want?

[eric_cc]

> People buy it because they expect the price to go up.

Some* people buy it because they expect the price to go up.

Other people are switching to bitcoin because it is better money than their local currency.

> everything it does can be done better by other things

Like what? Trustless transfer of money governed by a protocol that is highly decentralized and secure.

[ogogmad]

> Other people are switching to bitcoin because it is better money than their local currency.

USD, EUR, GBP and CHF are less volatile. The countries that manage them all have good credit ratings. Compare to BTC which has lost >55% of its value in the last 6 months. And you're calling that a currency?

Using safe fiat, or even gold, would be the "boring" solution because it doesn't go up in value much. If anything, it slowly loses value, but nothing among those 4 beats the >55% / 6mo drop of BTC.

If you're concerned about inflation, a finance expert might give you a "boring" lecture on how to counter it.

Maybe there should be a guide to the "boring" solutions to the problem that crypto supposedly solves in an "exciting" and (for now) lucrative way.

[eric_cc]

Who said anything about boring vs exciting? You’re projecting.

[zeven7]

> What's a phrase for when everyone is getting scammed, and not by any one person, but by an idea? Where there are no winners, only lucky and unlucky.

The phrase is "financial market"

[Ekaros]

Mania or bubble. I don't consider crypto market overall to be any type of scam or scheme. Just like I don't consider stock, or housing market to be one. Even if there is insanity, scams, schemes and fraud inside all of them.

[InitialLastName]

At least in theory, stocks and housing are underpinned by intrinsic assets (i.e. things that exist in the real world and/or intersubjective agreements whose value and status are enforced by people with guns). Crypto doesn't have that quality even hypothetically (except to the extent that people insist it does), which pushes it toward the same category as many of the well-known financial scams (which were characterized by people obscuring the lack of assets propping up the value of the scheme).

Edit: I was being overly general with the term "pyramid scheme"

[Ekaros]

I would only use pyramid scheme to mean rather specific structures. Like many MLMs are, where revenue and profit for individuals is generated by their recruitment activities and so-on. Not in general getting more people in a bubble. Just like Ponzi is centralized system where central actor pays out to old investors with new investors money. Not an open market where anyone can enter and leave at any time.

[InitialLastName]

You're right, I've updated to correct the wording.

[eric_cc]

> Crypto doesn't have that quality even hypothetically

And does paper fiat have intrinsic value?

Bitcoin is trustless money. It's mindblowingly amazing that we now have trustless money. We've never ever had that before. That is the value.

[InitialLastName]

> And does paper fiat have intrinsic value?

Yes, to the extent that people with guns will enforce its value (as I mentioned above).

> Bitcoin is trustless money. It's mindblowingly amazing that we now have trustless money. We've never ever had that before. That is the value.

You'll have to forgive me if I disagree that "mindblowingly amazing" constitutes "intrinsic value".

[eric_cc]

> You'll have to forgive me if I disagree that "mindblowingly amazing" constitutes "intrinsic value".

100% agree. I did not mean to argue that the value is in the fact that it is amazing. The value is in the trustless money network.

[Godel_unicode]

You keep using the word trustless, but Bitcoin is at best no more trustless than any other currency. You are falsely equating your balance not being able to be arbitrarily changed with it's value being stable. Only the latter (spending power) matters for a currency.

Bitcoin requires you to trust at least three things: Others will exchange it with you. Governments will not make holding/using it illegal. It will not lose it's value overnight. There is absolutely no reason to believe these will continue to be true.

[joecot]

I would call it something besides a pyramid scheme if the people who got in at the bottom didn't then turn around and endlessly proselytize for crypto -- not because they think it's actually great, but because they can't take their money out unless some other poor sucker buys in. At the point where crypto bros are paying Matt Damon to say you're not a real man unless you buy their crypto, it's a pyramid scheme.

[amirhirsch]

crypto mania, similar to tulip mania.

[naravara]

I guarantee you all the institutional investors and big finance invested in crypto absolutely do know better, and they know they have better quality information and the ability to respond to it faster than the masses of "retail" investors. So they will be on the winning end of the bubble burst at the expense of the schmucks on Twitter.

[gcheong]

Greater Fool Theory maybe: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory

[ChikkaChiChi]

I think "crypto meme scheme" or something to that effect

[acka]

A fad basically, fits the dictionary definition pretty well IMO.

[oceanghost]

The phrase is I think, "Greater Fool Theory".

[vannevar]

>...I really don't think there's anyone involved in crypto that is deliberately "winning".

I believe that bitcoin began as a straightforward "pump and dump" scheme, dressed up in a techno-libertarian narrative to appeal to its intended marks, young tech males with disposable income. As the size of the market has grown, I suspect the original cartel holds a smaller percentage of the outstanding supply, but I'll bet it's still enough to move the market deliberately when they choose.

[Ekaros]

I don't think it began as such, but as idealistic toy or proof of concept project where no one actually run the numbers to end goal. Then at some time it went to get rich quick loop, with some ideologues in mix.

[eric_cc]

Late stage bitcoin is:

It's trustless, sound money and therefore better than my bullshit fiat.

[frogpelt]

A house of cards?

[pmcp]

Betting?