[brabel]

> Russia has shown with Ukraine that complying with Russia's threats is not a guarantee that the future will be consequence-free.

When did Ukraine actually comply with any threat from Russia since at least the Maidan Revolution??

[mint2]

Well in the run up to the Russian invasion Ukraine wasn’t provoking Russia, and Russia officials continually denied it had plans to invade until oh wait they’d had plans for a super long time. I’m not sure about Ukraine complying with Russia orders, but they weren’t really antagonizing them other than by existing and not being completely subservient like Belarus. So yeah after top Russian officials spent so much time lying about the plans and showing they had no sincere intention to negotiate, it’s no wonder Finland and Sweden have decided not to trust Russia.

[brabel]

Your version of what happened seems extremely incomplete to me. Ukraine was basically fighting a war against Russia for 8 years already [1]... and that war started when the Russia-friendly government was removed by revolution (the demoted president fled to Russia after that) after which a very anti-Russian government was immediately instated with the whole objective of joining NATO and the EU, to Russia's dismay...

Not that just because of that Russia had the right to do what it was doing... but let's not forget everything that actually lead to the hostilities like you're simply doing.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas

[AuthorizedCust]

What is your point? Defending your country against an invading force and self determination of a republic are not provocations.

[brabel]

This is your opinion... if you believe everyone should agree with you on that, then yes, seeking membership on a military alliance whose aim is to keep your country at bay is not a provocation. But can you maybe consider that Putin and most Russians do not share your opinion? Would an American consider that Canada joining a Chinese-led military alliance to defend its members against USA's increased aggression (in Canadian's and Chinese opinions) count as a provocation to America? Well, to Americans it most certainly would... even if the Chinese disagreed completely with them... this is my point. It's easy to believe our opinion is the only one that counts and fuck anyone who doesn't share it.

[mint2]

In the two years prior to the war, what addition steps had Ukraine taken to become a nato member?

Second, why all the Russian lies about nazis? If nato was a legitimate concern why do they need those lies?

If nato was actually a concern, why would they take the step most likely to get Finland and Sweden on board with nato? It seems like many other statements by Russia, nato concerns are lies as well.

[brabel]

> what addition steps had Ukraine taken to become a nato member?

Oh man... now it looks like I am a Russian defender when I have to remind people that Ukraine was constitutionally obliged to seek NATO membership, and announced at the Brussels Summit in 2021 [1] that it would become a member? And that this was the trigger for the Russian mobilisation near the Ukrainian border??

How can people forget basic stuff like that?!?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations

[amrangaye]

I think the fact that you keep framing this as a matter of “opinion” is revealing in itself. You speak of “provocation” as if it’s equal and commensurate to bombing and invading a country. I really cannot understand people who keep pushing this point. Ukraine decided they might like to join NATO - so therefore Russia has a right to invade and level the country. Please make this make sense to me. The bombs dropping on Ukrainian citizens every night while Russian citizens sleep in peace should tell you enough - this is not a matter of “opinion” - how easy to say that from a privileged position in which you and your home are under no threat.

And your analogy with Canada and China doesn’t hold up either. In that case too the US would have no right to invade a sovereign country for making decisions about its own future. You speak as if this imagined scenario somehow justifies Putin’s actions when it fact it highlights how wrong they are even more.

[brabel]

Well you clearly are not trying to understand. You believe opinions don't matter as if your truth was the only truth.

For example.

> You speak of “provocation” as if it’s equal and commensurate to bombing and invading a country

I did not.

> Ukraine decided they might like to join NATO - so therefore Russia has a right to invade and level the country.

No. They made it a high priority [1] to join NATO knowing that Russia would be incredibly hostile to them doing that. Whether or not Russia was right to be that way doesn't really matter. If your bully neighbour tells you they may attack you if you try to join NATO, and you try to join NATO, you know all too well you're taking a giant bet.

> Please make this make sense to me.

Does the above help? Can you understand that your giant neighbour may not think like you do, and therefore may be willing to go to war and destroy their own economy just to stop you from joining what they see, rightfully or not, as an enemy alliance, no matter how much you try to convince them the alliance is not a threat even when it's whole reason to exist is to oppose your giant neighbour?

> The bombs dropping on Ukrainian citizens every night while Russian citizens sleep in peace should tell you enough

What does that have to do with the topic being discussed other than try to appeal to emotion? Anyway, yes, I am horrified to see Ukraine being bombed to the ground and I loathe the Russians for doing that. But I remember they made it extremely clear they were going to do that, and the USA and Ukraine were completely defiant to their demands (again, whether those demands were fair or not is another story)... when you have a gun pointed at your head, even the unfairest of demands should be taken seriously.

> In that case too the US would have no right to invade a sovereign country for making decisions about its own future.

Yes, I agree, but we all know all too well the US would absolutely invade, as it has done time and time again. You willing it wouldn't do that won't change that fact.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations

[agent008t]

Crimea was effectively allowed to be annexed by Russia.