[Ensorceled]

> Ok, if you're willing to renounce the style of 14 year old who just saw their first Hitchslap video

Well, this is a pleasant, open minded start... but thank you for the references.

> much in the same way that life-at-conception was mainstream biology until the moment it became politicized.

I think most mainstream biologist believe that a fetus is living cells and, hence, life. Most mainstream biologists would not, and did not, agree that humanity begins a conception, similarly most would agree a human is dead upon brain death and not "alive" simply because the corpse still has a heart beat. This is a discussion that was foisted upon biology and politicized, not vice versa.

The abortion debate is a fundamentally a religious debate, so it's good to understand it from that point of view.

[caterpi11ar]

When I was an atheist, I eventually came to understand that the belief that saying that a new organism created by two humans wasn't itself human was essentially a euphemism I could use to keep myself sane while still arguing in favour of abortion on social harmony grounds. But it is difficult to lie to oneself.

[Ensorceled]

At a minimum, it is logical to assume a human life biologically begins at the same time it ends ... using brain function. Any argument that a fetus with nothing but a brain stem, or a brain damaged adult with only a functioning brain stem remaining, is 'alive' is based on "sanctity of life" or other religious or pseudo religious beliefs.

As an atheist, I have no qualms or guilt about choosing to pull the plug on any biological "human" without a functioning cerebrum and cerebellum.

The third trimester is when the abortion debate gets at all tricky for me.

[tremon]

saying that a new organism created by two humans wasn't itself human

If this is your idea of an open, honest debate you can keep it.

[caterpi11ar]

Sorry about the barb.