[splatcollision]

Sometimes the old arguments are the best. Just because something has been said before doesn't make it any less valid.

[Apocryphon]

Those arguments don't even seem to have been debunked yet.

[daenz]

There's endless discussions on the internet about these tired topics. If you don't feel they have been debunked, I don't think you ever will. There are others that feel the opposite, also strongly. That's why these are tired points, because they go around in circles and make no progress.